6 ms·

Orthostatic tolerance, I think, means your ability to stand up without passing out. Basically drinking water means that markers of othostatic intolerance improv

Orthostatic tolerance, I think, means your ability to stand up without passing out. Basically drinking water means that markers of othostatic intolerance improve dramatically in healthy subjects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthostatic_intolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthostatic_intolerance

davelacy 5y ago
Interesting conclusion… though I wish I didn’t have to go down a rabbit hole to understand orthostatic tolerance I saw your comment too late but it’s appreciated! It’s too bad this couldn’t be briefly explained in the abstract by the researchers. Such small efforts go a long way in making research findings more easily understood to the general public. Overly highfalutin abstracts are a bit annoying
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  > It’s too bad this couldn’t be briefly explained in the abstract by the researchers. Where would you stop? It's a medical abstract that is full of terms and phrases that, for instance, my parents wouldn't understand. How long would this abstract be if aimed at a Grade 10 reading level? I counted at least 15 medical, diagnostic or clinical trial terms that would need to be explained to the average person, but would be the correct and concise terminology for a practitioner in the field. "Orthostatic symptoms and syncope", "severe autonomic dysfunction", "randomized, controlled, crossover fashion", "brachial blood pressure", "thoracic impedance", "blood flow velocity", "brachial artery", "middle cerebral artery", "presyncope", "supine mean blood pressure", "(P<0.01)", "stroke volume", "Cerebral blood flow regulation", "acute hemodynamic response", "cerebrovascular regulation"
  - furyg3 5y ago
    On the one hand, I think you're right, it's more the job of science journalists to summarize scientific literature and communicate its significance based on research methods and potential impact. At the same time, this goes wrong so often that you could make an argument for a 'plain English' summary of an article to help facilitate both journalists and the curious. Presumably researchers explain their research to non-experts all the time, so this is not some unbelievable request.
    - austinjp 5y ago
      Some publishers do indeed try to provide a plain-language summary where possible. See Cochrane reviews, for example this one: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD012868.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      I guess I kind of feel like we are barging into a conversation between scientists and doctors and demanding that they write down to our level because we are "curious" and someone linked to it from HN. I would expect a journalist writing about this kind of article to actually be able to understand the abstract, at a minimum, or they shouldn't be writing about this. I know I'd be annoyed if a bunch of doctors started reviewing my architecture documents and criticized me for not explaining s3 or etl or snowflake or redshift.
  - gumby 5y ago
    Where this required (package labeling on OTC medications, for example) the FDA requires that it be written at a fifth grade level. OTOH the so-called “label” (package insert) is written for doctors and pharmacists. I would hate it if I had to break out words like “page table”, “TLB”, “pointer swizzle”, etc when writing a paper. I have to assume the reader has some basic knowledge of the topic at hand else they are unlikely to understand what I’m talking about anyway. You see this in the uproar over “Critical Race Theory” or a lot of the Covid misinformation sites: the basics are not misunderstood or ignored so the argument goes in strange and incomprehensible directions. The problem is deeper than a little vocabulary.
    - anoncow 5y ago
      Leaflets meant for patients are to be written in lay language. Prescribing information meant for physicians aren’t. I would consider scientific literature to be the same as prescribing information as they are aimed at the scientific community and not the lay public. Science journalists perhaps are meant to fill the gap here.
      - gumby 5y ago
        Indeed but the origin of this thread was someone complaining that abstracts of technical papers aren’t written in language that anyone could understand.
- drnonsense42 5y ago
  The entire purpose of an abstract is for fellow experts in the field to grok the paper quickly, not for the general public to get a hand-wavy interpretation of jargon. And quite frankly, absurd practicalities aside, there is a lot of harm in having every paper accessible to all. There’s a wide divide between papers that have been accepted to a venue vs. important theory that has been debated and accepted by a scientific community and is worth presenting to the general public. And, the general public certainly cannot tell the difference.
- nautilius 5y ago
  I had to look up 'highfalutin' to understand your comment on a general message board.
cik2e 5y ago
I'm susceptible to dizzy spells upon standing myself. Not sure if this is an issue of orthostatic tolerance or something else. I did a little research a while back and read that this is associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Yay for me. I do drink plenty of water, maybe too much even, am in good shape, and have no medical conditions of any kind. Weed greatly exacerbates this issue for me, probably from the fact that it reduces blood pressure, but this can still happen when I'm not smoking for extended periods. Recently, I figured out a way to short circuit the onset of a dizzy spell. Hyperventilating completely nips this in the bud, likely because it increases blood pressure [1]. I'd recommend trying this technique to anyone that's otherwise healthy (I am not a doctor) and coping with this issue. [1] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.0000052315.51182.3D https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.00000523...
- foobarian 5y ago
  Interesting, I found that hyperventilating is actually pretty much guaranteed to cause a fainting for me. The method is to sit down as low as feasible, maybe even lie down, hyperventilate for about a minute, and then rapidly stand up. I used to do this to faint on command until I hurt myself falling on a concrete patio. Now I know this effect has a name and a possible mitigation, yay!
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Very tangential, but your comment reminded me of this... I have this weird trick where I can put the back of my tongue against the roof of my mouth, and exhale I'm a certain way that causes a whistling sound, I think where my sinuses reach my throat. That often makes me light-headed very shortly after for some reason.
  - MetallicCloud 5y ago
    Same thing for me. I used to do it with friends when I was a teenager. Until they got the idea I was faking and let me hit the deck, expecting me to catch myself.
- stefan_ 5y ago
Leary 5y ago
I'm young but this happens to me sometimes in the evening when I experience caffeine withdrawal.
- kozak 5y ago
  Are you sure this is caffeine withdrawal and not a sugar crash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_hypoglycemia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_hypoglycemia)?

davelacy 5y ago

Interesting conclusion… though I wish I didn’t have to go down a rabbit hole to understand orthostatic tolerance I saw your comment too late but it’s appreciated! It’s too bad this couldn’t be briefly explained in the abstract by the researchers. Such small efforts go a long way in making research findings more easily understood to the general public. Overly highfalutin abstracts are a bit annoying

Ensorceled 5y ago
> It’s too bad this couldn’t be briefly explained in the abstract by the researchers. Where would you stop? It's a medical abstract that is full of terms and phrases that, for instance, my parents wouldn't understand. How long would this abstract be if aimed at a Grade 10 reading level? I counted at least 15 medical, diagnostic or clinical trial terms that would need to be explained to the average person, but would be the correct and concise terminology for a practitioner in the field. "Orthostatic symptoms and syncope", "severe autonomic dysfunction", "randomized, controlled, crossover fashion", "brachial blood pressure", "thoracic impedance", "blood flow velocity", "brachial artery", "middle cerebral artery", "presyncope", "supine mean blood pressure", "(P<0.01)", "stroke volume", "Cerebral blood flow regulation", "acute hemodynamic response", "cerebrovascular regulation"
- furyg3 5y ago
  On the one hand, I think you're right, it's more the job of science journalists to summarize scientific literature and communicate its significance based on research methods and potential impact. At the same time, this goes wrong so often that you could make an argument for a 'plain English' summary of an article to help facilitate both journalists and the curious. Presumably researchers explain their research to non-experts all the time, so this is not some unbelievable request.
  - austinjp 5y ago
    Some publishers do indeed try to provide a plain-language summary where possible. See Cochrane reviews, for example this one: https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD012868.pub2/full https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD...
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    I guess I kind of feel like we are barging into a conversation between scientists and doctors and demanding that they write down to our level because we are "curious" and someone linked to it from HN. I would expect a journalist writing about this kind of article to actually be able to understand the abstract, at a minimum, or they shouldn't be writing about this. I know I'd be annoyed if a bunch of doctors started reviewing my architecture documents and criticized me for not explaining s3 or etl or snowflake or redshift.
- gumby 5y ago
  Where this required (package labeling on OTC medications, for example) the FDA requires that it be written at a fifth grade level. OTOH the so-called “label” (package insert) is written for doctors and pharmacists. I would hate it if I had to break out words like “page table”, “TLB”, “pointer swizzle”, etc when writing a paper. I have to assume the reader has some basic knowledge of the topic at hand else they are unlikely to understand what I’m talking about anyway. You see this in the uproar over “Critical Race Theory” or a lot of the Covid misinformation sites: the basics are not misunderstood or ignored so the argument goes in strange and incomprehensible directions. The problem is deeper than a little vocabulary.
  - anoncow 5y ago
    Leaflets meant for patients are to be written in lay language. Prescribing information meant for physicians aren’t. I would consider scientific literature to be the same as prescribing information as they are aimed at the scientific community and not the lay public. Science journalists perhaps are meant to fill the gap here.
    - gumby 5y ago
      Indeed but the origin of this thread was someone complaining that abstracts of technical papers aren’t written in language that anyone could understand.
drnonsense42 5y ago
The entire purpose of an abstract is for fellow experts in the field to grok the paper quickly, not for the general public to get a hand-wavy interpretation of jargon. And quite frankly, absurd practicalities aside, there is a lot of harm in having every paper accessible to all. There’s a wide divide between papers that have been accepted to a venue vs. important theory that has been debated and accepted by a scientific community and is worth presenting to the general public. And, the general public certainly cannot tell the difference.
nautilius 5y ago
I had to look up 'highfalutin' to understand your comment on a general message board.

cik2e 5y ago

I'm susceptible to dizzy spells upon standing myself. Not sure if this is an issue of orthostatic tolerance or something else. I did a little research a while back and read that this is associated with significantly higher all-cause mortality. Yay for me. I do drink plenty of water, maybe too much even, am in good shape, and have no medical conditions of any kind. Weed greatly exacerbates this issue for me, probably from the fact that it reduces blood pressure, but this can still happen when I'm not smoking for extended periods. Recently, I figured out a way to short circuit the onset of a dizzy spell. Hyperventilating completely nips this in the bud, likely because it increases blood pressure [1]. I'd recommend trying this technique to anyone that's otherwise healthy (I am not a doctor) and coping with this issue. [1] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.0000052315.51182.3D https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.HYP.00000523...

foobarian 5y ago
Interesting, I found that hyperventilating is actually pretty much guaranteed to cause a fainting for me. The method is to sit down as low as feasible, maybe even lie down, hyperventilate for about a minute, and then rapidly stand up. I used to do this to faint on command until I hurt myself falling on a concrete patio. Now I know this effect has a name and a possible mitigation, yay!
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Very tangential, but your comment reminded me of this... I have this weird trick where I can put the back of my tongue against the roof of my mouth, and exhale I'm a certain way that causes a whistling sound, I think where my sinuses reach my throat. That often makes me light-headed very shortly after for some reason.
- MetallicCloud 5y ago
  Same thing for me. I used to do it with friends when I was a teenager. Until they got the idea I was faking and let me hit the deck, expecting me to catch myself.
stefan_ 5y ago

Leary 5y ago

I'm young but this happens to me sometimes in the evening when I experience caffeine withdrawal.

kozak 5y ago
Are you sure this is caffeine withdrawal and not a sugar crash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_hypoglycemia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_hypoglycemia)?