5 ms·

[flagged]

by viktorcode 5y ago

[flagged]

_rgek 5y ago
Genocidal policies are usually quite popular with the local majority.
ZoomerCretin 5y ago
[flagged]
- snovv_crash 5y ago
  Forced sterilization of an ethnicity is genocide, and there's no debate as to whether this is happening.
  - ZoomerCretin 5y ago
    China has a population control policy. They've exempted minorities from this policy for decades. That they are now enforcing their laws equally is not genocide.
  - dennis_system 5y ago
    [flagged]
kwere 5y ago
sinocentrism is the belief in wich han culture is seen as superior and others need to assimilite or "go away". its a thousand old practice. most people seem compliacent with this view supported by the government. 92% of china is han and 56 minorities take the other 8%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism
- g8oz 5y ago
  There has been pushback against Han supremacy in the past, sad to see those efforts have been forgotten in today's China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Races_Under_One_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Races_Under_One_Union
bscphil 5y ago
I disagree. They genuinely don't believe it is genocide. There's even international disagreement about the proper characterization of it. Most countries sufficiently propagandize their own citizens to inoculate them against the view that their own actions represent crimes against humanity, regardless of how they come to be viewed decades or centuries later. I don't think the core of your idea is wrong though. The disturbing thing, to me, is that pro-China writers both in this thread and elsewhere think that disproving the charge of genocide (by linking to blogs or China's own view on the subject, mostly) they have cleared China of wrongdoing. It's obvious to me as someone with a modicum of moral intelligence that this is not really the case. As an American, I am happy to admit that my understanding of the situation in Xinjiang is probably tainted by anti-China ideas being spread in my country. However, even if I take China entirely at its word about what it is doing, it's still quite obvious that this is horrifically bad and wrong. I would support boycotts entirely on the basis of China's own characterization of its actions. That's really the sad, disturbing thing; people are supporting China by "showing" that Western media characterizations of the camps are inaccurate. I'm happy to admit they might be, but I believe it is a great moral failing to not denounce China's actions on its own terms. What is uncontested: China is sending members (~1.3M per year) of a religious / ethnic minority (Uyghur) to internment camps for the purpose of preventing / deterring terrorism and to promote their social integration into China as a whole. This is chilling to anyone who knows anything at all about the history of interning ethnic minorities. It was bad and wrong when the United States sent 125,000 Japanese people to live in camps during World War II. Anyone who protested or boycotted the United States for the purpose of ending that internment was, or would have been, justified. I am fully ready to apply the same standards to other countries, including my own, as I apply to China. Likewise, whether it fully qualifies for the term "forced labor" or not, work done by people while imprisoned is inherently questionable and deserves heavy scrutiny. I believe that the conditions in prisons in the United States and the very-low-wage labor done by our prisoners are an abject moral horror, and it's important to turn the same critical eye to China's use of Uyghur labor. Again, that's just looking at China's own view of it. The facts of the matter are likely to lie somewhere in between, which is even more concerning. It's hard not to see the shadow of some of the 20th century's fascistic horrors in China's discriminatory policies towards the Uyghur population, especially if anything in this piece turns out to be true: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
dang 5y ago
Please don't post generic flamewar comments to HN, and certainly not generic nationalistic flamewar comments. It's against the site guidelines and everything we're trying for this forum to be. No, I'm not defending genocide. I'm just trying to defend this forum from burning itself to a crisp. There are lots of other places on the internet to hurl platitudes at enemies. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- viktorcode 5y ago
  Sorry, I didn't think about it. In that case I would suggest avoid the posting the news like that one, if it is against site rules.
  - dang 5y ago
    It's not that simple. The news was on topic and it's possible to discuss it thoughtfully and substantively, so that's what users here need to do. The topic isn't an excuse for breaking the rules. I don't mean to pick on you! this problem is obviously widespread.

[flagged]

_rgek 5y ago

Genocidal policies are usually quite popular with the local majority.

ZoomerCretin 5y ago

[flagged]

snovv_crash 5y ago
Forced sterilization of an ethnicity is genocide, and there's no debate as to whether this is happening.
- ZoomerCretin 5y ago
  China has a population control policy. They've exempted minorities from this policy for decades. That they are now enforcing their laws equally is not genocide.
- dennis_system 5y ago
  [flagged]

kwere 5y ago

sinocentrism is the belief in wich han culture is seen as superior and others need to assimilite or "go away". its a thousand old practice. most people seem compliacent with this view supported by the government. 92% of china is han and 56 minorities take the other 8%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_nationalism

g8oz 5y ago
There has been pushback against Han supremacy in the past, sad to see those efforts have been forgotten in today's China. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Races_Under_One_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Races_Under_One_Union

bscphil 5y ago

I disagree. They genuinely don't believe it is genocide. There's even international disagreement about the proper characterization of it. Most countries sufficiently propagandize their own citizens to inoculate them against the view that their own actions represent crimes against humanity, regardless of how they come to be viewed decades or centuries later. I don't think the core of your idea is wrong though. The disturbing thing, to me, is that pro-China writers both in this thread and elsewhere think that disproving the charge of genocide (by linking to blogs or China's own view on the subject, mostly) they have cleared China of wrongdoing. It's obvious to me as someone with a modicum of moral intelligence that this is not really the case. As an American, I am happy to admit that my understanding of the situation in Xinjiang is probably tainted by anti-China ideas being spread in my country. However, even if I take China entirely at its word about what it is doing, it's still quite obvious that this is horrifically bad and wrong. I would support boycotts entirely on the basis of China's own characterization of its actions. That's really the sad, disturbing thing; people are supporting China by "showing" that Western media characterizations of the camps are inaccurate. I'm happy to admit they might be, but I believe it is a great moral failing to not denounce China's actions on its own terms. What is uncontested: China is sending members (~1.3M per year) of a religious / ethnic minority (Uyghur) to internment camps for the purpose of preventing / deterring terrorism and to promote their social integration into China as a whole. This is chilling to anyone who knows anything at all about the history of interning ethnic minorities. It was bad and wrong when the United States sent 125,000 Japanese people to live in camps during World War II. Anyone who protested or boycotted the United States for the purpose of ending that internment was, or would have been, justified. I am fully ready to apply the same standards to other countries, including my own, as I apply to China. Likewise, whether it fully qualifies for the term "forced labor" or not, work done by people while imprisoned is inherently questionable and deserves heavy scrutiny. I believe that the conditions in prisons in the United States and the very-low-wage labor done by our prisoners are an abject moral horror, and it's important to turn the same critical eye to China's use of Uyghur labor. Again, that's just looking at China's own view of it. The facts of the matter are likely to lie somewhere in between, which is even more concerning. It's hard not to see the shadow of some of the 20th century's fascistic horrors in China's discriminatory policies towards the Uyghur population, especially if anything in this piece turns out to be true: https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

dang 5y ago

Please don't post generic flamewar comments to HN, and certainly not generic nationalistic flamewar comments. It's against the site guidelines and everything we're trying for this forum to be. No, I'm not defending genocide. I'm just trying to defend this forum from burning itself to a crisp. There are lots of other places on the internet to hurl platitudes at enemies. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

viktorcode 5y ago
Sorry, I didn't think about it. In that case I would suggest avoid the posting the news like that one, if it is against site rules.
- dang 5y ago
  It's not that simple. The news was on topic and it's possible to discuss it thoughtfully and substantively, so that's what users here need to do. The topic isn't an excuse for breaking the rules. I don't mean to pick on you! this problem is obviously widespread.