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> Intel, which has 10,000 employees in China, said in its apology that it "respected the sensitivity of the issue in China." This reminds me of a recent Britis

> Intel, which has 10,000 employees in China, said in its apology that it "respected the sensitivity of the issue in China." This reminds me of a recent British politics round-table interview, where a member of the ruling party told the world that we shouldn't call politicians liars - despite the current Prime Minister lying through his teeth at almost every opportunity simply because he can get away with it - because it would undermine people's faith in the political system that keeps lying to them. It seems that saying the things that need to be said about the political systems that need to be called out is not as important as getting the money (or savings) that the countries attached to those political systems can generate. Or, as a great man once sang: For china (f'china x 4) is a country that can bring us to our knees. Not sure there's a solution to this though. Power will always corrupt.

namdnay 5y ago
> a member of the ruling party told the world that we shouldn't call politicians liars - despite the current Prime Minister lying through his teeth at almost every opportunity simply because he can get away with it - because it would undermine people's faith in the political system that keeps lying to them. I didn’t follow the event, but I have to agree with whoever said that. There’s nothing more toxic to democracy than people just saying “ah politicians are all liars anyway”. That’s exactly what post-truth politicians like Johnson, Trump and Putin want you to believe - it’s all a big joke anyway, so who cares?
- sumedh 5y ago
  > want you to believe Are you claiming that politicians are not liars?
  - namdnay 5y ago
    That's exactly the kind of easy cynicism that serves no-one. Yes, everyone lies, politicians and non-politicians. "you're looking good", "our product already does this", "i was just about to do that", "it's our highest priority"... and in a job where you are constantly being asked to satisfy everyone, of course there are going to be fibs. But there are relatively honest politicians and there are absolute sociopaths like Johnson, and it's important to differentiate the two
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > there are relatively honest politicians Part of the problem is good politicians are agents of compromise. When a culture ceases to be able to find compromise, a direction online echo chambers and social media are driving ours, then a politician who wins 90% in exchange for giving 10% comes back a liar. They said they were going to get 100%!
    - sumedh 5y ago
      > But there are relatively honest politicians So instead of sugar coating you just need to say they lie less compared to other politicians.
- gelert 5y ago
  What's toxic to democracy is politicians lying, and then telling us that p;ointing out their moments of hypocrisy is what's doing the real damage. Describing reality is never bad.
  - tiahura 5y ago
    Politicians have been lying since the origin of politics. The modern press’ penchant for shouting liar every time a politician they don’t like speaks is juvenile and patronizing to the audience.
    - zarzavat 5y ago
      Why not both? The media is full of liars, yes - two words "Daily Mail" or "Fox News" if you are American. Politics is also full of liars. Boris Johnson being a prime example. I don't know what the solution is but I suspect it lies in removing egoism from the system. Something more like Switzerland's governing council rather than an individual leader that just attracts narcissistic individuals.
  - whoopdedo 5y ago
    There's a world of difference between "This politician is lying to you." and "All politicians are lying to you." One is a statement against a single incident which can be refuted or supported by additional facts. The other is an unprovable blanket statement which begs the question of whether the government can be trusted.
    - syshum 5y ago
      The question "can government be trusted" is long answered with a resounding NO it can not Government like fire is a useful servant, but a fearful master. This is why we have separation of powers, checks and balances, and a federalist system in the US, because we understand government can never, and should never be trusted. Government is control, government is fear, government is power. Power Corrupts, and the only way to prevent that corruption is to deny power, to check power, to distribute power.
- undecisive 5y ago
  I think there's a difference between "all politicians are liars", and "several people currently in positions of power are repeated being untruthful with absolute impunity because of the system of politics that is enabling them to do so without consequences" Which, now that I say it out loud, do sound very very similar. But this feeling that they are all liars is not new. In fact, at least with politicians they have a very easy "tell": You know when a politician is lying because their lips move. (That joke has been around since before I was born, and I was born in the 80s.) The difference isn't that the country thinks politicians are liars. That has not changed. The difference is that there has always been this "honour code" in politics, where if your sleaze was found out, you fell on your sword. But this was not ever backed up with any law with teeth, and so when the likes of Boris repeatedly lies, he can just throw another flunky under the bus to appease the crowds, or do something stupid to make the crowds laugh, and carry on as normal. I don't think politics ever needed any outward credibility. It never had any. It needed external accountability. And without encouraging the media and the public to hold them to account when they do lie, we'll never get that accountability. In effect, the post-truth weakness you describe should never depend on public perception. In a well functioning government, repeated unrepentant deception should always trigger some form of legal jeopardy.

namdnay 5y ago

> a member of the ruling party told the world that we shouldn't call politicians liars - despite the current Prime Minister lying through his teeth at almost every opportunity simply because he can get away with it - because it would undermine people's faith in the political system that keeps lying to them. I didn’t follow the event, but I have to agree with whoever said that. There’s nothing more toxic to democracy than people just saying “ah politicians are all liars anyway”. That’s exactly what post-truth politicians like Johnson, Trump and Putin want you to believe - it’s all a big joke anyway, so who cares?

sumedh 5y ago
> want you to believe Are you claiming that politicians are not liars?
- namdnay 5y ago
  That's exactly the kind of easy cynicism that serves no-one. Yes, everyone lies, politicians and non-politicians. "you're looking good", "our product already does this", "i was just about to do that", "it's our highest priority"... and in a job where you are constantly being asked to satisfy everyone, of course there are going to be fibs. But there are relatively honest politicians and there are absolute sociopaths like Johnson, and it's important to differentiate the two
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > there are relatively honest politicians Part of the problem is good politicians are agents of compromise. When a culture ceases to be able to find compromise, a direction online echo chambers and social media are driving ours, then a politician who wins 90% in exchange for giving 10% comes back a liar. They said they were going to get 100%!
  - sumedh 5y ago
    > But there are relatively honest politicians So instead of sugar coating you just need to say they lie less compared to other politicians.
gelert 5y ago
What's toxic to democracy is politicians lying, and then telling us that p;ointing out their moments of hypocrisy is what's doing the real damage. Describing reality is never bad.
- tiahura 5y ago
  Politicians have been lying since the origin of politics. The modern press’ penchant for shouting liar every time a politician they don’t like speaks is juvenile and patronizing to the audience.
  - zarzavat 5y ago
    Why not both? The media is full of liars, yes - two words "Daily Mail" or "Fox News" if you are American. Politics is also full of liars. Boris Johnson being a prime example. I don't know what the solution is but I suspect it lies in removing egoism from the system. Something more like Switzerland's governing council rather than an individual leader that just attracts narcissistic individuals.
- whoopdedo 5y ago
  There's a world of difference between "This politician is lying to you." and "All politicians are lying to you." One is a statement against a single incident which can be refuted or supported by additional facts. The other is an unprovable blanket statement which begs the question of whether the government can be trusted.
  - syshum 5y ago
    The question "can government be trusted" is long answered with a resounding NO it can not Government like fire is a useful servant, but a fearful master. This is why we have separation of powers, checks and balances, and a federalist system in the US, because we understand government can never, and should never be trusted. Government is control, government is fear, government is power. Power Corrupts, and the only way to prevent that corruption is to deny power, to check power, to distribute power.
undecisive 5y ago
I think there's a difference between "all politicians are liars", and "several people currently in positions of power are repeated being untruthful with absolute impunity because of the system of politics that is enabling them to do so without consequences" Which, now that I say it out loud, do sound very very similar. But this feeling that they are all liars is not new. In fact, at least with politicians they have a very easy "tell": You know when a politician is lying because their lips move. (That joke has been around since before I was born, and I was born in the 80s.) The difference isn't that the country thinks politicians are liars. That has not changed. The difference is that there has always been this "honour code" in politics, where if your sleaze was found out, you fell on your sword. But this was not ever backed up with any law with teeth, and so when the likes of Boris repeatedly lies, he can just throw another flunky under the bus to appease the crowds, or do something stupid to make the crowds laugh, and carry on as normal. I don't think politics ever needed any outward credibility. It never had any. It needed external accountability. And without encouraging the media and the public to hold them to account when they do lie, we'll never get that accountability. In effect, the post-truth weakness you describe should never depend on public perception. In a well functioning government, repeated unrepentant deception should always trigger some form of legal jeopardy.