4 ms·

Let's just tax carbon extraction and not worry about who's doing what with it. Although I suppose there's a separate externality to creating friable material.

by xapata 5y ago

Let's just tax carbon extraction and not worry about who's doing what with it. Although I suppose there's a separate externality to creating friable material. The issue of discarding too much should be addressed with higher prices at the dump.

ggm 5y ago
Bottle and can recycling worked with incentives. But both are valuable to the receiver outside of the cash incentive on energy grounds. I don't think fabric recycling has that energy benefit so I am unsure incentives would work full life cycle. But you could be right: carbon pricing down to the edge on all things might actually be good economics if we can work out how to make it run. Please don't say blockchain
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  I have one better than blockchain. When can we all get those futuristic ones piece outfits with the lightning bolt across the torso? I was led to believe that’s what everyone would be wearing sooner or later.
  - ggm 5y ago
    "Things to come" (1935) and "metropolis" (1927) said loincloths and Greek togas for elites but boilersuits for plebs. I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds.
    - throwhauser 5y ago
      > I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds. Which brings us right back to (very) fast fashion.
      - ggm 5y ago
        OK. Let's make one onesie, call it an NFT and you have to post a picture wearing it, before you pass it on to somebody else.
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      > I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds. sure - long enough for you to run around Central City robbing every bank.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Don't forget the underwear on the outside!
- Vetch 5y ago
  The problem, not unique to fast fashion, is we've structured things such that recycling is rarely economical. That shouldn't be the case, our damage to ecosystems means prices are not properly accounting for the cost of negative externalities. Whether in inputs (unethical labor practices, questionable material composition, hazardous inputs handling, manipulative marketing tactics and artificial scarcity) or in outputs (planned obsolescence, unsustainable consumption, disposal, discounting full product life-cycle), socio+ecological costs are ignored to maximize profits while keeping prices fairly low. It's good to democratize access to more and fancier options but if this comes by cheating and a dishonest accounting of costs, it's not worth it (full cost accounting will be better in the long run, having to account for product full life cycle might spur investment and innovations in say, mechanical disposal automation or plasma arc gasification).
einpoklum 5y ago
The assumption that social goals are achievable by price and tax adjustments is faulty. So is the assumption that the state = "us".
- xapata 5y ago
  L'etat c'est moi. Taxes (and thereby price adjustments) can achieve some social goals. Empirically so, not assumed. Both the "state" and "us" are social constructs, and are simultaneously both essentially the same concept and entirely separate concepts. The nice thing is that we don't need theory here, we can just try it and find out if it helps, then try something else if it fails.
DFHippie 5y ago
> Although I suppose there's a separate externality to creating friable material. The issue of discarding too much should be addressed with higher prices at the dump. If the dump costs more, people create unlicensed dumps. Thus the cost remains external.
colinmhayes 5y ago
These goods are produced internationally. How do you intend to force foreign governments to have a carbon tax?
- ordx 5y ago
  Import tax
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    How do you know how much carbon the goods used?
    - usrusr 5y ago
      A valid question. By keeping to raise that import tax until they accept doing a trustable carbon tax instead. Next up: how could you identify a trustable carbon tax? How could you do the tariff thing without all hell breaking loose both on the level of inter-government relations and in terms of plain old grassroots contraband snuggling?

by xapata 5y ago

ggm 5y ago

Bottle and can recycling worked with incentives. But both are valuable to the receiver outside of the cash incentive on energy grounds. I don't think fabric recycling has that energy benefit so I am unsure incentives would work full life cycle. But you could be right: carbon pricing down to the edge on all things might actually be good economics if we can work out how to make it run. Please don't say blockchain

IgorPartola 5y ago
I have one better than blockchain. When can we all get those futuristic ones piece outfits with the lightning bolt across the torso? I was led to believe that’s what everyone would be wearing sooner or later.
- ggm 5y ago
  "Things to come" (1935) and "metropolis" (1927) said loincloths and Greek togas for elites but boilersuits for plebs. I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds.
  - throwhauser 5y ago
    > I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds. Which brings us right back to (very) fast fashion.
    - ggm 5y ago
      OK. Let's make one onesie, call it an NFT and you have to post a picture wearing it, before you pass it on to somebody else.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    > I would wear a spandex "onesie" with a lightning bolt.. for about 30 seconds. sure - long enough for you to run around Central City robbing every bank.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Don't forget the underwear on the outside!
Vetch 5y ago
The problem, not unique to fast fashion, is we've structured things such that recycling is rarely economical. That shouldn't be the case, our damage to ecosystems means prices are not properly accounting for the cost of negative externalities. Whether in inputs (unethical labor practices, questionable material composition, hazardous inputs handling, manipulative marketing tactics and artificial scarcity) or in outputs (planned obsolescence, unsustainable consumption, disposal, discounting full product life-cycle), socio+ecological costs are ignored to maximize profits while keeping prices fairly low. It's good to democratize access to more and fancier options but if this comes by cheating and a dishonest accounting of costs, it's not worth it (full cost accounting will be better in the long run, having to account for product full life cycle might spur investment and innovations in say, mechanical disposal automation or plasma arc gasification).

einpoklum 5y ago

The assumption that social goals are achievable by price and tax adjustments is faulty. So is the assumption that the state = "us".

xapata 5y ago
L'etat c'est moi. Taxes (and thereby price adjustments) can achieve some social goals. Empirically so, not assumed. Both the "state" and "us" are social constructs, and are simultaneously both essentially the same concept and entirely separate concepts. The nice thing is that we don't need theory here, we can just try it and find out if it helps, then try something else if it fails.

DFHippie 5y ago

> Although I suppose there's a separate externality to creating friable material. The issue of discarding too much should be addressed with higher prices at the dump. If the dump costs more, people create unlicensed dumps. Thus the cost remains external.

colinmhayes 5y ago

These goods are produced internationally. How do you intend to force foreign governments to have a carbon tax?

ordx 5y ago
Import tax
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  How do you know how much carbon the goods used?
  - usrusr 5y ago
    A valid question. By keeping to raise that import tax until they accept doing a trustable carbon tax instead. Next up: how could you identify a trustable carbon tax? How could you do the tariff thing without all hell breaking loose both on the level of inter-government relations and in terms of plain old grassroots contraband snuggling?