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“We always knew this thing had an expiration date,” (Hulio) told the friend" This was clearly the plan all along. Such companies live and die by their low prof

“We always knew this thing had an expiration date,” (Hulio) told the friend" This was clearly the plan all along. Such companies live and die by their low profiles. Was probably not the founders' first such company nor will it be their last. Next step will be to close up, take the contacts, clients, capital, the lessons learned and the cream of the staff to whatever mercenary, unethical piece of crap they make next. This is why killing the industry as a whole is so important. It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash. No bank would fund it, no parters would supply it and no one with any talent would ever contemplate such a catastrophic career move in future.

FpUser 5y ago
>"It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash." What a brave approach. Especially in regards to employees. This would close down every other major US company.
- programmarchy 5y ago
  They knew what they were doing. And I don’t see why major US companies deserve much sympathy if they’re as bad as you say.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  "every other major us company" how do you figure? Are most major us companies selling exploits at all, let alone to rogue states?
post_from_work 5y ago
"This is why killing the industry as a whole is so important. It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash. No bank would fund it, no parters would supply it and no one with any talent would ever contemplate such a catastrophic career move in future." And no government of any geopolitical significance would ever support such actions. These kinds of people, and their skills/tools, are FAR too useful.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Yet here we are, useful or not. I applaud these kind of movements, since this company's actions were clearly amoral and they supported anybody with enough cash, mass murderer or not. All those actions mentioned by OP dissuade talent, since when you are on the top you have tons of interesting choices. Why work somewhere you are actually ashamed of to even mention. Why on top of that working for amoral goals that make world a much worse place, innocent people get killed just because of your work etc. Those talents will find some work easily. Maybe even for competition. But its the right move, the more the better.
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  Why? They'll still be put to use. Just not via a for profit industry creating an arms race between middling powers. If anything it will make recruitment by significant governments easier.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
HomeDeLaPot 5y ago
Phones should be secure. There will always be people with the talent and desire to attack them—if not private, then state-sponsored. There needs to be more engineering work put into finding vulnerabilities, patching them, and preventing more.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
The industry being comprehensively destroyed: that won't happen. Too useful to the wannabe masters of the world in the CIA and other intelligence agencies, and, well, I guess the true "richest people in the world": despot leaders of large economies. A better question is that while these companies are basically cyber weapons companies, what do the truly big players have: the US and China? We got a glimpse with the viruses targeting hard drive firmware and others, but maybe they are lazy because they get to enforce backdoors.
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  Why not? Mercenary tech didn't exist 15 years ago, so it's not like an industry is needed to create useful state hackers. Top talent would just continue to be nurtured in-house in more accountable government agencies.
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    These are just like any other weapons manufacturer, really. Top talent will make way more in private firms, it's the only way to make a ton of money. Government pay is basically capped. The government pay also encourages the government employees to hire contractors, because that's how you get side benefits (not bribes! tooootallly not bribes), like ultra cushy jobs for relatives, a "consulting" job once you get sick of the government, etc. I'd say it's like aerospace contractors. Just wayyyy to high tech for a government project and mediocre pool. Even NASA can't efficiently design complicated engineering projects, and they probably are the only government agency with a good reputation and decent people. The only interesting thing about these vendors is that their weapons are in active, constant use, but it's not that obvious to the victims.
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      "Even NASA can't efficiently design complicated engineering projects" Um, the Apollo Program... or did you mean cost efficient? Mercenaries are a better analog. Are you saying that soldiers of fortune make better soldiers? Better armies? The public vs private sector debate isn't as simple or settled as you suggest. For example, and more on topic, given relatively modest salaries the NSA has produced some of the most capable, respected hackers in existence. Creating a parasitic new industry just isn't necessary. Creating risks to global stability isn't either.
Thorrez 5y ago
> It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees Facebook banned all NSO employees from Facebook. The Israeli courts forced Facebook to unban them. https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3837077,00.html https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3837077...

FpUser 5y ago

>"It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash." What a brave approach. Especially in regards to employees. This would close down every other major US company.

programmarchy 5y ago
They knew what they were doing. And I don’t see why major US companies deserve much sympathy if they’re as bad as you say.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
"every other major us company" how do you figure? Are most major us companies selling exploits at all, let alone to rogue states?

post_from_work 5y ago

"This is why killing the industry as a whole is so important. It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees/contractors with naming/shaming, coordinated sanctions, criminal charges, designated persons lists etc. until their reputations are trash. No bank would fund it, no parters would supply it and no one with any talent would ever contemplate such a catastrophic career move in future." And no government of any geopolitical significance would ever support such actions. These kinds of people, and their skills/tools, are FAR too useful.

saiya-jin 5y ago
Yet here we are, useful or not. I applaud these kind of movements, since this company's actions were clearly amoral and they supported anybody with enough cash, mass murderer or not. All those actions mentioned by OP dissuade talent, since when you are on the top you have tons of interesting choices. Why work somewhere you are actually ashamed of to even mention. Why on top of that working for amoral goals that make world a much worse place, innocent people get killed just because of your work etc. Those talents will find some work easily. Maybe even for competition. But its the right move, the more the better.
Sporktacular 5y ago
Why? They'll still be put to use. Just not via a for profit industry creating an arms race between middling powers. If anything it will make recruitment by significant governments easier.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

HomeDeLaPot 5y ago

Phones should be secure. There will always be people with the talent and desire to attack them—if not private, then state-sponsored. There needs to be more engineering work put into finding vulnerabilities, patching them, and preventing more.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

The industry being comprehensively destroyed: that won't happen. Too useful to the wannabe masters of the world in the CIA and other intelligence agencies, and, well, I guess the true "richest people in the world": despot leaders of large economies. A better question is that while these companies are basically cyber weapons companies, what do the truly big players have: the US and China? We got a glimpse with the viruses targeting hard drive firmware and others, but maybe they are lazy because they get to enforce backdoors.

Sporktacular 5y ago
Why not? Mercenary tech didn't exist 15 years ago, so it's not like an industry is needed to create useful state hackers. Top talent would just continue to be nurtured in-house in more accountable government agencies.
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  These are just like any other weapons manufacturer, really. Top talent will make way more in private firms, it's the only way to make a ton of money. Government pay is basically capped. The government pay also encourages the government employees to hire contractors, because that's how you get side benefits (not bribes! tooootallly not bribes), like ultra cushy jobs for relatives, a "consulting" job once you get sick of the government, etc. I'd say it's like aerospace contractors. Just wayyyy to high tech for a government project and mediocre pool. Even NASA can't efficiently design complicated engineering projects, and they probably are the only government agency with a good reputation and decent people. The only interesting thing about these vendors is that their weapons are in active, constant use, but it's not that obvious to the victims.
  - Sporktacular 5y ago
    "Even NASA can't efficiently design complicated engineering projects" Um, the Apollo Program... or did you mean cost efficient? Mercenaries are a better analog. Are you saying that soldiers of fortune make better soldiers? Better armies? The public vs private sector debate isn't as simple or settled as you suggest. For example, and more on topic, given relatively modest salaries the NSA has produced some of the most capable, respected hackers in existence. Creating a parasitic new industry just isn't necessary. Creating risks to global stability isn't either.

Thorrez 5y ago

> It'll mean going after the owners, suppliers and employees Facebook banned all NSO employees from Facebook. The Israeli courts forced Facebook to unban them. https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3837077,00.html https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3837077...