5 ms·

To be fair, residential/commercial heating could be entirely electric, and heat pumps have additional benefits over natural gas heating (like being reversible i

To be fair, residential/commercial heating could be entirely electric, and heat pumps have additional benefits over natural gas heating (like being reversible in the summer). Presumably people would switch if the cost of electricity was low enough for it to be more economical. Decisions that result in the price of electricity staying high provide political leverage to gas producers. Though, eyeballing the numbers, it really should be very attractive to install heat pumps in the EU despite the high electricity cost. The cost of natural gas is quite high.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
This would be very difficult for the grid. Switching to electric heating is a big hurdle.
- wumpus 5y ago
  Electric heating? Do you mean resistive heating, or heat pumps? It's been difficult in this discussion to figure out what people are saying.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    And when you say resistive, do you mean element within (an electric) boiler, radiators to work as normal, or something more direct, electric radiators/underfloor/etc.? I think it doesn't really matter much what is meant throughout - point was about shifting gas demand on to the electricity supply, and whether the grid could cope with it if everyone did that to a meaningful degree.
    - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
      Resistive heating means using 1kw of electricity to get 1kw of heat. Heat pumps use 1kw of electricity to get >1kw heat.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        Not necessarily, it's just uncorrelated since it's not what's doing the actual heating. Similarly a gas boiler uses 1kW electricity (for the pump) to get potentially >1kW heat out of radiators (and pipes). Because that heat is energy conserved from the gas, not the electricity. Anyway I didn't mention heat pumps or compare them to resistive heating so I'm not sure what I'm defending.
londons_explore 5y ago
In northern countries where the primary need is heating (and there is very little need for cooling), heat pumps at current electricity and gas prices are 2x more expensive per kWh of heat put into the property. They are also about 3x more expensive to install. They only make sense in places that need cooling too, or when electricity gets cheaper.
- Kim_Bruning 5y ago
  Are those 2019 numbers or 2021 numbers?
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    Numbers from 1 hour ago... From the UK, and assuming UK climate for COP figures. ~True with both retail capped prices, and wholesale market prices. There are still people in the UK installing heat pumps. Either they have a very rose tinted view of the future direction of electricity prices Vs gas, a rose tinted view of future government taxes/incentives, a rose tinted view of the environmental benefits (eg. By looking at aggregate CO2 emissions instead of marginal CO2 emissions), or they have been misled by installers/builders who make substantially more money if they install a heat pump. Either that or I got my maths wrong. But I don't think I did.
    - patd 5y ago
      Can you expand on the aggregate CO2 vs marginal CO2 part ? I’m looking into installing a ground heat pump in a new house (coupled with solar panels) mostly for environmental reasons and all the critics I’ve read so far were about the costs.
      - londons_explore 5y ago
        If you turn on a light and use some extra electricity, some power station somewhere will need to increase power output to provide for you. It's the CO2 production of that extra generation, known as marginal generation, you should care about, not the nationwide average. Most of the time, in most of the world, that extra generation is combined cycle gas turbines at ~50% efficiency. For most people, the only time a new use of electricity is eco-friendly is when all the energy in a country is already supplied by wind/solar/hydro, and therefore a newly switched on thing also gets supplied by wind/solar/hydro. Obviously the decision to installation a heat pump depends on the marginal generation in 15 years when you are still using that heat pump. That's very hard to predict.

spywaregorilla 5y ago

This would be very difficult for the grid. Switching to electric heating is a big hurdle.

wumpus 5y ago
Electric heating? Do you mean resistive heating, or heat pumps? It's been difficult in this discussion to figure out what people are saying.
- OJFord 5y ago
  And when you say resistive, do you mean element within (an electric) boiler, radiators to work as normal, or something more direct, electric radiators/underfloor/etc.? I think it doesn't really matter much what is meant throughout - point was about shifting gas demand on to the electricity supply, and whether the grid could cope with it if everyone did that to a meaningful degree.
  - BenjiWiebe 5y ago
    Resistive heating means using 1kw of electricity to get 1kw of heat. Heat pumps use 1kw of electricity to get >1kw heat.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      Not necessarily, it's just uncorrelated since it's not what's doing the actual heating. Similarly a gas boiler uses 1kW electricity (for the pump) to get potentially >1kW heat out of radiators (and pipes). Because that heat is energy conserved from the gas, not the electricity. Anyway I didn't mention heat pumps or compare them to resistive heating so I'm not sure what I'm defending.

londons_explore 5y ago

In northern countries where the primary need is heating (and there is very little need for cooling), heat pumps at current electricity and gas prices are 2x more expensive per kWh of heat put into the property. They are also about 3x more expensive to install. They only make sense in places that need cooling too, or when electricity gets cheaper.

Kim_Bruning 5y ago
Are those 2019 numbers or 2021 numbers?
- londons_explore 5y ago
  Numbers from 1 hour ago... From the UK, and assuming UK climate for COP figures. ~True with both retail capped prices, and wholesale market prices. There are still people in the UK installing heat pumps. Either they have a very rose tinted view of the future direction of electricity prices Vs gas, a rose tinted view of future government taxes/incentives, a rose tinted view of the environmental benefits (eg. By looking at aggregate CO2 emissions instead of marginal CO2 emissions), or they have been misled by installers/builders who make substantially more money if they install a heat pump. Either that or I got my maths wrong. But I don't think I did.
  - patd 5y ago
    Can you expand on the aggregate CO2 vs marginal CO2 part ? I’m looking into installing a ground heat pump in a new house (coupled with solar panels) mostly for environmental reasons and all the critics I’ve read so far were about the costs.
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      If you turn on a light and use some extra electricity, some power station somewhere will need to increase power output to provide for you. It's the CO2 production of that extra generation, known as marginal generation, you should care about, not the nationwide average. Most of the time, in most of the world, that extra generation is combined cycle gas turbines at ~50% efficiency. For most people, the only time a new use of electricity is eco-friendly is when all the energy in a country is already supplied by wind/solar/hydro, and therefore a newly switched on thing also gets supplied by wind/solar/hydro. Obviously the decision to installation a heat pump depends on the marginal generation in 15 years when you are still using that heat pump. That's very hard to predict.