3 ms·

> The objective way to identify gay men is to ask if they have slept with gay men over a certain period. So what's the objective time period? And if a gay man

> The objective way to identify gay men is to ask if they have slept with gay men over a certain period. So what's the objective time period? And if a gay man has an unlucky streak for that length of time, do they auto default back to straight? What about bi or pan people? If someone identified as bisexual but you have only ever seen them in relationships with the opposite gender, can you reasonably say "you're actually objectively straight"? The idea of objective metrics for social categories falls apart under the slightest scrutiny. The government can assign objective markers but only for things that are objective - the whole "gay men not being allowed to donate blood" thing for example is meant to screen out HIV right? So the metrics are aligned around that goal (also it's a messed up system but that's another subject). The government measuring certain metrics does not make them the objective definition, because the government is not the definer of reality. I think you're confused by a lack of understanding of some of these ideas, plus a healthy mix of "there are quite a few insane or poorly reasoned progressives", but mainly the former. For example, sex and gender are different things, and some of the things you have said confuse the two, but also some arguments from trans activists also do that.

jollybean 5y ago
"The idea of objective metrics for social categories falls apart under the slightest scrutiny" This is definitely false, even from the most socially progressive perspective. That some categories are not perfectly defined, that we don't always agree, that some are 'self-defined', and that definitions can overlap - does not mean that those objective definitions do not exist. This "There is no Black or White because there are Infinite Shades of Grey" is not reasoning, it's just postmodern rabbit-hole rhetoric. Whoever you are, you categorize all day, every day. Literally when you walk out the door you are making concrete, objective assertions about all sorts of categories, including, and especially gender. You're a living breathing counter-example to your own argument. I understand perfectly well the current Western ideology around 'Gender and Sex' so you can save the ad hominem. Gender is so deeply and broadly rooted in human culture across cultures and time, that it almost doesn't matter how we want to argue about in 2021 in North America, because time will prevail and leave these arguments in the dust. People will generally accept Katlyn Jenner and frankly, accept her moderate views on Transgenderism, but people will never accept the opposite of gender essentialism i.e. 'Gender is a Pure Construct' without overwhelming thought programming. Those fighting for the 'Gender Is a Construct Absolutism' are like Violent Angry Puritans trying to stop people from consuming alcohol, a few battles may be won here and there, and they may be able to keep people in their cult with a lot of constant programming, but the war will definitely be lost eventually. That said, we may be in for a pretty nutty ride for a couple of decades as the Justice System rolls over itself trying to cope.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  - jollybean 5y ago
    - beaconstudios 5y ago

jollybean 5y ago

"The idea of objective metrics for social categories falls apart under the slightest scrutiny" This is definitely false, even from the most socially progressive perspective. That some categories are not perfectly defined, that we don't always agree, that some are 'self-defined', and that definitions can overlap - does not mean that those objective definitions do not exist. This "There is no Black or White because there are Infinite Shades of Grey" is not reasoning, it's just postmodern rabbit-hole rhetoric. Whoever you are, you categorize all day, every day. Literally when you walk out the door you are making concrete, objective assertions about all sorts of categories, including, and especially gender. You're a living breathing counter-example to your own argument. I understand perfectly well the current Western ideology around 'Gender and Sex' so you can save the ad hominem. Gender is so deeply and broadly rooted in human culture across cultures and time, that it almost doesn't matter how we want to argue about in 2021 in North America, because time will prevail and leave these arguments in the dust. People will generally accept Katlyn Jenner and frankly, accept her moderate views on Transgenderism, but people will never accept the opposite of gender essentialism i.e. 'Gender is a Pure Construct' without overwhelming thought programming. Those fighting for the 'Gender Is a Construct Absolutism' are like Violent Angry Puritans trying to stop people from consuming alcohol, a few battles may be won here and there, and they may be able to keep people in their cult with a lot of constant programming, but the war will definitely be lost eventually. That said, we may be in for a pretty nutty ride for a couple of decades as the Justice System rolls over itself trying to cope.

beaconstudios 5y ago
- jollybean 5y ago
  - beaconstudios 5y ago