5 ms·

This is actually one of the things I like to highlight to folks that talk a little-too-gleefully about socialism. The military implements socialism for convenie

by _ktx2 5y ago

This is actually one of the things I like to highlight to folks that talk a little-too-gleefully about socialism. The military implements socialism for convenience and cost effectiveness. The result is atrocious. This was in Camp Lejeune, NC. I almost never got adequate medical care. The medical system was strange and winding. There were all kinds of approvals needed for very simple things. The food standards were absolutely terrible. I don't know if it was an actual thing, but I was told there was a threshold for the number of roaches that could be present on food dispensing equipment before they'd throw the food out. The housing was disgusting. I lived in a barracks built in 1945 with inadequate parking, sewage that once popped a goldfish into a toilet bowl, water that occasionally would turn totally brown or yellow and is now known to have made people sick. There was a door to the interior of the building where ducts, pipes, and internet were run that all contained asbestos and asbestos warnings. The worst part, you had no option to say, "Give me the dollar amount you spend on this so I can find my own options" but they'll gladly tell you what they spent at an inflated rate. These are just the ones off the top of my head.

jhgb 5y ago
The results you describe sound very much like pre-1989 Czechoslovakia to me. I guess they actually did achieve socialism! :)
- _ktx2 5y ago
  They do achieve socialism, without a doubt.
aidenn0 5y ago
I have heard similar stories from all members of my family that served in the military. Their experiences with healthcare in the military have essentially guaranteed they will never get behind a single-payer health-care system.
- kodah 5y ago
  I think it's possible. I existed in that system and am at times still bound to it when dealing with the VA. I think my attitude is more, "go fix the system you already have to experiment with."
lapetitejort 5y ago
On the flip side, the military also has Bethesda Naval Hospital and Walter Reed Medical Center (both who regularly treat the President, such as when Trump had covid), life insurance, TSGLI, G.I. Bill (free plus monthly stipend), lifetime disability, Tricare, VA home loans, among others. I know people who lived in brand new barracks with keycards. People who lived in air conditioned pods in the middle of the desert with four square meals a day. Sounds like you had a bad experience and things could certainly improve. The military won't always offer a stellar experience, and Marines are often rough with their surroundings. Just ask people deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.
jessaustin 5y ago
Your experiences are meaningful to you, but they don't indicate anything significant about socialism. Socialism is not the goal of USA military. The point of the exercise is to transfer resources from citizens to armaments manufacturers. Who lives or dies, how they're treated in the meantime, the stories we tell about the whole mess, all this is random noise about which the generals DGAF. If we want to know about socialism, we'll observe Scandinavia or anywhere else where it actually happens. We don't need the tortured analogies of frustrated NCOs. I'm not a socialist, BTW.
- kodah 5y ago
  I don't think it's entirely accurate to say "ignore this evidence of a failed system". My point in highlighting it is there's an opportunity to fix it and experiment on a small scale. Imagine if you made that system work, how much you'd learn, and how much support you'd garner.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    You only consider USA military to be a "failed system" because you don't realize its actual purpose. One might imagine that it's about security... which, sure, total failure on that front. The actual purpose, as indicated above, is to transfer resources from USA citizens to armaments manufacturers, a purpose that is accomplished to greater degrees every year. Taking good care of the troops would detract from the goal, which is why that doesn't happen.
    - kodah 5y ago
      Eh, what?
      - jessaustin 5y ago
        You were at Camp Lejeune so you might have heard about "baby heaven". [0] That shit is just evil. No socialist system has deliberately poisoned military families just so the generals could get sweet jobs from private companies after they retired, so your experiences were of capitalism, not socialism. Calling it socialism just makes you look sort of clueless. This awful poisoning shit is still happening right now. [1] The officers who run particular installations DGAF about the health of people living there. They just want to "accomplish their objectives" which is invariably some wargames bullshit or fake statistical readiness scam. They get their ribbons or promotions or whatever and GTFO. Their grandkids won't have to drink tetrachloroethylene when they're living in some swanky NoVA suburb. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-trust-betrayed-the-untold-story-of-camp-lejeune-by-mike-magner/2014/04/04/34e273cc-b423-11e3-8020-b2d790b3c9e1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-trust-betrayed-the... [1] https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/12/22/two-red-hill-spills-could-be-linked-with-one-much-larger-than-reported/ https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/12/22/two-red-hill-spills...
FireBeyond 5y ago
> I almost never got adequate medical care. The medical system was strange and winding. There were all kinds of approvals needed for very simple things. The military implements socialism _poorly_. By contrast, when I had a horrific gout flareup in Australia, there was no approvals needed to admit me for a nine day inpatient stay with rheumatologist, PT, etc. I am getting surgery on a heavily deviated septum, in the US. It shows up on imaging so notably that even when I had a head CT for something completely else, the radiologist flagged it as being of note. When I went to an ENT, he confirmed a "90%+" occlusion that would need septoplasty and a bilateral turbinate reduction to relieve. He talked me through the pros and cons of surgery for informed consent purposes. "I'm fine with all of that, let's schedule." "So, no. Not yet. First I'm going to give you these two nasal sprays for six weeks, that you'll take and come back and tell me didn't resolve your issue, and _then_ we can schedule. That way your insurance won't reject it." I had to spend $180 on two nasal sprays that, according to my insurer, may have resolved a cartilage issue in my nose. i.e. 1) the non-socialist system in the US also requires all kinds of approvals (I'm also a paramedic - UHC years ago got fined for denying Heli EMS coverage for people involved in among other things, car accidents, for "lack of preapproval"), and 2) "socialist" systems in other countries don't require all kinds of approvals - that isn't an inherent aspect of the socialism.

by _ktx2 5y ago

jhgb 5y ago

The results you describe sound very much like pre-1989 Czechoslovakia to me. I guess they actually did achieve socialism! :)

_ktx2 5y ago
They do achieve socialism, without a doubt.

aidenn0 5y ago

I have heard similar stories from all members of my family that served in the military. Their experiences with healthcare in the military have essentially guaranteed they will never get behind a single-payer health-care system.

kodah 5y ago
I think it's possible. I existed in that system and am at times still bound to it when dealing with the VA. I think my attitude is more, "go fix the system you already have to experiment with."

lapetitejort 5y ago

On the flip side, the military also has Bethesda Naval Hospital and Walter Reed Medical Center (both who regularly treat the President, such as when Trump had covid), life insurance, TSGLI, G.I. Bill (free plus monthly stipend), lifetime disability, Tricare, VA home loans, among others. I know people who lived in brand new barracks with keycards. People who lived in air conditioned pods in the middle of the desert with four square meals a day. Sounds like you had a bad experience and things could certainly improve. The military won't always offer a stellar experience, and Marines are often rough with their surroundings. Just ask people deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan.

jessaustin 5y ago

Your experiences are meaningful to you, but they don't indicate anything significant about socialism. Socialism is not the goal of USA military. The point of the exercise is to transfer resources from citizens to armaments manufacturers. Who lives or dies, how they're treated in the meantime, the stories we tell about the whole mess, all this is random noise about which the generals DGAF. If we want to know about socialism, we'll observe Scandinavia or anywhere else where it actually happens. We don't need the tortured analogies of frustrated NCOs. I'm not a socialist, BTW.

kodah 5y ago
I don't think it's entirely accurate to say "ignore this evidence of a failed system". My point in highlighting it is there's an opportunity to fix it and experiment on a small scale. Imagine if you made that system work, how much you'd learn, and how much support you'd garner.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  You only consider USA military to be a "failed system" because you don't realize its actual purpose. One might imagine that it's about security... which, sure, total failure on that front. The actual purpose, as indicated above, is to transfer resources from USA citizens to armaments manufacturers, a purpose that is accomplished to greater degrees every year. Taking good care of the troops would detract from the goal, which is why that doesn't happen.
  - kodah 5y ago
    Eh, what?
    - jessaustin 5y ago
      You were at Camp Lejeune so you might have heard about "baby heaven". [0] That shit is just evil. No socialist system has deliberately poisoned military families just so the generals could get sweet jobs from private companies after they retired, so your experiences were of capitalism, not socialism. Calling it socialism just makes you look sort of clueless. This awful poisoning shit is still happening right now. [1] The officers who run particular installations DGAF about the health of people living there. They just want to "accomplish their objectives" which is invariably some wargames bullshit or fake statistical readiness scam. They get their ribbons or promotions or whatever and GTFO. Their grandkids won't have to drink tetrachloroethylene when they're living in some swanky NoVA suburb. [0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-trust-betrayed-the-untold-story-of-camp-lejeune-by-mike-magner/2014/04/04/34e273cc-b423-11e3-8020-b2d790b3c9e1_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-trust-betrayed-the... [1] https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/12/22/two-red-hill-spills-could-be-linked-with-one-much-larger-than-reported/ https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2021/12/22/two-red-hill-spills...

FireBeyond 5y ago

> I almost never got adequate medical care. The medical system was strange and winding. There were all kinds of approvals needed for very simple things. The military implements socialism _poorly_. By contrast, when I had a horrific gout flareup in Australia, there was no approvals needed to admit me for a nine day inpatient stay with rheumatologist, PT, etc. I am getting surgery on a heavily deviated septum, in the US. It shows up on imaging so notably that even when I had a head CT for something completely else, the radiologist flagged it as being of note. When I went to an ENT, he confirmed a "90%+" occlusion that would need septoplasty and a bilateral turbinate reduction to relieve. He talked me through the pros and cons of surgery for informed consent purposes. "I'm fine with all of that, let's schedule." "So, no. Not yet. First I'm going to give you these two nasal sprays for six weeks, that you'll take and come back and tell me didn't resolve your issue, and _then_ we can schedule. That way your insurance won't reject it." I had to spend $180 on two nasal sprays that, according to my insurer, may have resolved a cartilage issue in my nose. i.e. 1) the non-socialist system in the US also requires all kinds of approvals (I'm also a paramedic - UHC years ago got fined for denying Heli EMS coverage for people involved in among other things, car accidents, for "lack of preapproval"), and 2) "socialist" systems in other countries don't require all kinds of approvals - that isn't an inherent aspect of the socialism.