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> which is useful on the battlefield to keep people alive to get to proper medical care This is a battlefield. It's an emergency, remember? Do whatever it tak

> which is useful on the battlefield to keep people alive to get to proper medical care This is a battlefield. It's an emergency, remember? Do whatever it takes. We forced people to sacrifice their short-ass lives in lockdown so these people could figure it out. Where is the results? 2 years and these "experts" still want us to continue locking down to protect a healthcare system they had 2 years to build up specifically to manage covid. It's as if every one of our lives is worthless in the eyes of people making excuses. No. We paid with our time--something we'll never get back. It is a complete travesty that governments continue to blame the public for their own inability to figure shit out.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> This is a battlefield. No, it's literally not. > It's an emergency, remember? Yes and all battlefields are emergencies but not all emergencies have the same conditions (and thus make the same measures expedient) as battlefields. > Do whatever it takes. Sure, but what you are suggesting is not what it takes, or something that would be reasonably expected to be useful and effective. > 2 years and these "experts" still want us to continue locking down We never generally locked down in the US and no one is suggesting lockdowns now, so I have no idea what “continue locking down” is supposed to mean. (Some US jurisdictions had brief and mostly unenforced policies that, if enforced, would have been local lockdowns, but even the on paper policies expired without renewal quite some time ago.)
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  So you are totally okay with the government flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain to "flatten the curve to build up supplies and healthcare" with zero results? In fact, so little results that many places are locking down yet again like it was march of 2020? Do y'all not value your lives or short time on this earth at all? You should be furious the government is still playing the "protect healthcare capacity" card. They literally wasted 2 years of your life. No results. And they have the audacity to blame you and the rest of society for their failure!! How on earth is that excusable?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > So you are totally okay with the government flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain I reject that that's an even remotely accurate description of anything that has happened, or has any other relevancd to reality. > many places are locking down yet again What places? Unless you are using “locking down” as loosely as you’ve used “battlefield”, that's not actually happening, anywhere. > And they have the audacity to blame you The only people I’ve seen anyone in government even approximately blame are particular government decision-makers who allegedly deliberately acted to make things worse and the unvaccinated, neither group of which included me. So, again, I reject that this description is grounded in reality.
    - spookthesunset 5y ago
      Sorry, not gonna play "its not a real lockdown" pedantry with you. I don't care what you call it. Any restriction we made in the last 2 years be it closed small businesses, masks, vaccine mandates, hall passes to go on dog walks, "not allowed to walk on the dry sand, only the wet sand", closed playgrounds, closed schools... all of it... it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity... right? If that is true, where are the results? And if the goal isn't to flatten the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity, please inform me what the goal actually is. 'Cause if that ain't it... I have no fucking clue what we are doing.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity... right? No. The things that were about flattening the curve were about avoiding acute health system overload and increased mortality that would result from that (for all causes, not just COVID, since no ICU capacity kills people regardless of the reason they can't get into an ICU) to provide time for the development of effective preventive and treatment interventions, minimizing deaths on the route to that. (I suppose you can call that “building healthcare capacity”, but the goal has never been prinarily about bulking up the number of seriously I'll people hospitals can concurrently treat on a sustained basis, but the capacity to prevent people from getting seriously ill.) (The original research indicated that after a general lockdown period, cycling local, often more modest, control measures would likely be necessary to that end.) While the particular half-measures adopted and half-heartedly implemented have had mixed results in preventing health system overload (since we've seen temporary overload various places at various times), we have, in fact, developed various effective interventions and are on the road to more.
jimkleiber 5y ago
Let's say it's 100% of the government's fault, which I don't believe, but let's just say it for argument's sake. So why don't you run for office and do it differently?
- spookthesunset 5y ago
  > Let's say it's 100% of the government's fault, which I don't believe, but let's just say it for argument's sake. Who else's fault is it? It isn't the public, that is for sure. You can't blame people for human behavior and "not taking this seriously". These governments asked us to pay one of the highest costs you can pay--they asked us to donate 2 years of our short lives to their cause. And thus far, they have done absolutely nothing but blame the public for their failings. Life is short. Being asked to flush 2 years of your life down the toilet in this purgatory we are in is a huge ask. Don't you think we should see some results now?
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    These last two years have been some of the hardest years of my life, as a person who normally travels and works internationally with large groups of people, I have been inside the same house for two years with just my parents, one of whom went through chemo and a heart attack while covid was happening. So I feel you on how these past two years have seemed like purgatory, feeling stuck and watching life tick away. I also wish the various levels of government would have responded differently. I'm assuming you mean in the US, but that's where I am so I'll go with that. I wish the Trump admin would have responded differently, the Biden admin, the US Senate and House (2020 and 2021 members), my governor in Michigan, the senate and house in Michigan, the county health department, my local mayor, and more. At least in Michigan, they didn't ask me to donate 2 years of my time, much of that has been my choice, frankly against what the Michigan Congress voted. The governor pushed for strong closures in the beginning and the Congress overruled that. Many of the people here have been acting as if there is no pandemic, doing almost exactly what they did before covid-19 existed. Frankly, even many elements of the Trump admin and US Congress have told us to live our lives as normal. So if anything, I think the government, at its various levels, have provided mixed messages on what we should and should not do. From complete and total lockdown, to open but wear masks, to complete and total return to normalcy. At least in my experience, I haven't heard a coherent "donate 2 years of our short lives to their cause," but rather a mixed message, coming from politicians, who, just as the public are people with human behavior.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> This is a battlefield. No, it's literally not. > It's an emergency, remember? Yes and all battlefields are emergencies but not all emergencies have the same conditions (and thus make the same measures expedient) as battlefields. > Do whatever it takes. Sure, but what you are suggesting is not what it takes, or something that would be reasonably expected to be useful and effective. > 2 years and these "experts" still want us to continue locking down We never generally locked down in the US and no one is suggesting lockdowns now, so I have no idea what “continue locking down” is supposed to mean. (Some US jurisdictions had brief and mostly unenforced policies that, if enforced, would have been local lockdowns, but even the on paper policies expired without renewal quite some time ago.)

spookthesunset 5y ago
So you are totally okay with the government flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain to "flatten the curve to build up supplies and healthcare" with zero results? In fact, so little results that many places are locking down yet again like it was march of 2020? Do y'all not value your lives or short time on this earth at all? You should be furious the government is still playing the "protect healthcare capacity" card. They literally wasted 2 years of your life. No results. And they have the audacity to blame you and the rest of society for their failure!! How on earth is that excusable?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > So you are totally okay with the government flushing 2 years of your incredibly short life down the drain I reject that that's an even remotely accurate description of anything that has happened, or has any other relevancd to reality. > many places are locking down yet again What places? Unless you are using “locking down” as loosely as you’ve used “battlefield”, that's not actually happening, anywhere. > And they have the audacity to blame you The only people I’ve seen anyone in government even approximately blame are particular government decision-makers who allegedly deliberately acted to make things worse and the unvaccinated, neither group of which included me. So, again, I reject that this description is grounded in reality.
  - spookthesunset 5y ago
    Sorry, not gonna play "its not a real lockdown" pedantry with you. I don't care what you call it. Any restriction we made in the last 2 years be it closed small businesses, masks, vaccine mandates, hall passes to go on dog walks, "not allowed to walk on the dry sand, only the wet sand", closed playgrounds, closed schools... all of it... it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity... right? If that is true, where are the results? And if the goal isn't to flatten the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity, please inform me what the goal actually is. 'Cause if that ain't it... I have no fucking clue what we are doing.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > it was all in the name of flattening the curve to build supplies and increase healthcare capacity... right? No. The things that were about flattening the curve were about avoiding acute health system overload and increased mortality that would result from that (for all causes, not just COVID, since no ICU capacity kills people regardless of the reason they can't get into an ICU) to provide time for the development of effective preventive and treatment interventions, minimizing deaths on the route to that. (I suppose you can call that “building healthcare capacity”, but the goal has never been prinarily about bulking up the number of seriously I'll people hospitals can concurrently treat on a sustained basis, but the capacity to prevent people from getting seriously ill.) (The original research indicated that after a general lockdown period, cycling local, often more modest, control measures would likely be necessary to that end.) While the particular half-measures adopted and half-heartedly implemented have had mixed results in preventing health system overload (since we've seen temporary overload various places at various times), we have, in fact, developed various effective interventions and are on the road to more.

jimkleiber 5y ago

Let's say it's 100% of the government's fault, which I don't believe, but let's just say it for argument's sake. So why don't you run for office and do it differently?

spookthesunset 5y ago
> Let's say it's 100% of the government's fault, which I don't believe, but let's just say it for argument's sake. Who else's fault is it? It isn't the public, that is for sure. You can't blame people for human behavior and "not taking this seriously". These governments asked us to pay one of the highest costs you can pay--they asked us to donate 2 years of our short lives to their cause. And thus far, they have done absolutely nothing but blame the public for their failings. Life is short. Being asked to flush 2 years of your life down the toilet in this purgatory we are in is a huge ask. Don't you think we should see some results now?
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  These last two years have been some of the hardest years of my life, as a person who normally travels and works internationally with large groups of people, I have been inside the same house for two years with just my parents, one of whom went through chemo and a heart attack while covid was happening. So I feel you on how these past two years have seemed like purgatory, feeling stuck and watching life tick away. I also wish the various levels of government would have responded differently. I'm assuming you mean in the US, but that's where I am so I'll go with that. I wish the Trump admin would have responded differently, the Biden admin, the US Senate and House (2020 and 2021 members), my governor in Michigan, the senate and house in Michigan, the county health department, my local mayor, and more. At least in Michigan, they didn't ask me to donate 2 years of my time, much of that has been my choice, frankly against what the Michigan Congress voted. The governor pushed for strong closures in the beginning and the Congress overruled that. Many of the people here have been acting as if there is no pandemic, doing almost exactly what they did before covid-19 existed. Frankly, even many elements of the Trump admin and US Congress have told us to live our lives as normal. So if anything, I think the government, at its various levels, have provided mixed messages on what we should and should not do. From complete and total lockdown, to open but wear masks, to complete and total return to normalcy. At least in my experience, I haven't heard a coherent "donate 2 years of our short lives to their cause," but rather a mixed message, coming from politicians, who, just as the public are people with human behavior.