4 ms·

Whenever someone speaks in lofty ideals it's always important to get them to be specific about what those ideals look like in practice, and be specific about wh

Whenever someone speaks in lofty ideals it's always important to get them to be specific about what those ideals look like in practice, and be specific about what they're looking for. "Subversion of the consent of the governed" can be anywhere from "making the kids smoke cigarettes at recess" to "teaching the works of MLK Jr. even though it makes local parents uncomfortable". The classic example of this is the whole "states' rights" canard re: the American Civil War. The states' rights to what, exactly? People often defend the hard-to-defend by talking in generalities and appealing to abstractions. The real test of the idea is if you can defend it both generally and specifically.

nickff 5y ago
>"The classic example of this is the whole "states' rights" canard re: the American Civil War. The states' rights to what, exactly?" The states have rights according to the tenth amendment (the last amendment in the 'Bill of Rights'): >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
- fknorangesite 5y ago
  > The states have rights Why don't you answer the question? The Civil War was fought over a state's right to do what, exactly?
  - vkou 5y ago
    The declarations of secession by Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Virginia, and Texas only mention slavery 83 times [1][2] between them, but if revisionists are to be believed, they were obviously not about a state's right to enslave human beings and to own them as property. [3] [1] https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#Texas https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati... [2] That word happens to be mentioned only 11 times in the entirety of the text of Huckleberry Finn, by the way. [3] The word 'property' appears 16 times, and refers to human beings in every single one of those instances.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      I like it when people link the actual declarations, because Mississippi's in particular is a doozy: > Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth.
- potatolicious 5y ago
  Indeed you're still talking in generalities: which rights were being asserted under this reading of the Constitution? The quote you provided could mean literally anything, from regulating the sale of beef to taxing bread. I suspect neither hamburgers nor dinner rolls were the subject of the Civil War. Which rights were in dispute?
itronitron 5y ago
Also worth mentioning that prior to the Civil War the South was very much opposed to states rights because that would have allowed northern states to block the capture and return of runaway slaves. >> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/underground-railroad-states-rights-114536/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/underground-...

nickff 5y ago

>"The classic example of this is the whole "states' rights" canard re: the American Civil War. The states' rights to what, exactly?" The states have rights according to the tenth amendment (the last amendment in the 'Bill of Rights'): >"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

fknorangesite 5y ago
> The states have rights Why don't you answer the question? The Civil War was fought over a state's right to do what, exactly?
- vkou 5y ago
  The declarations of secession by Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Virginia, and Texas only mention slavery 83 times [1][2] between them, but if revisionists are to be believed, they were obviously not about a state's right to enslave human beings and to own them as property. [3] [1] https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states#Texas https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declarati... [2] That word happens to be mentioned only 11 times in the entirety of the text of Huckleberry Finn, by the way. [3] The word 'property' appears 16 times, and refers to human beings in every single one of those instances.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    I like it when people link the actual declarations, because Mississippi's in particular is a doozy: > Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth.
potatolicious 5y ago
Indeed you're still talking in generalities: which rights were being asserted under this reading of the Constitution? The quote you provided could mean literally anything, from regulating the sale of beef to taxing bread. I suspect neither hamburgers nor dinner rolls were the subject of the Civil War. Which rights were in dispute?

itronitron 5y ago

Also worth mentioning that prior to the Civil War the South was very much opposed to states rights because that would have allowed northern states to block the capture and return of runaway slaves. >> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/underground-railroad-states-rights-114536/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/underground-...