5 ms·

If you don't think that modern gender ideology has any victims, you should read what some of them have written themselves: https://www.newsweek.com/theres-no-st

If you don't think that modern gender ideology has any victims, you should read what some of them have written themselves: https://www.newsweek.com/theres-no-standard-care-when-it-comes-trans-medicine-opinion-1603450 https://www.newsweek.com/theres-no-standard-care-when-it-com...

lern_too_spel 5y ago
The victims are better off than they were before. Before, they were harassed and beaten. Now, they have a choice. They can either medicate with psychiatric drugs, simply express themselves as the gender they feel themselves to be, or surgically and hormonally change themselves. None of those three options will let them live the lives they wish to lead, but the best option is different for different people, and they have the choice to figure out which is best for them without society responding with violence.
- noxer 5y ago
  The goal should obviously be to end any violence at all and give people free choice. But AFAIK no decision they make fundamentally changes anything. Hormones, surgery etc. don't seem to solve anything statistically speaking. For example you frequently head that hormone therapy should be stated as early as possible to get the best desired result but if you look at suicide data, earlier hormone treatment does not reduce suicides. Neither does surgery. Should the people sill have their free will to chose? Yes, absolutely but as early as possible? Probably not. Young people make stupid decisions that's why they are not allowed to do certain things and decide certain things. If a kid isn't allowed to get a tattoo why is it controversial that it isn't allowed to take hormones that permanently alter their body and make them infertile. Also lets just assume that from all teenager going trough puberty that would be eligible for hormone therapy on the basis of their own decision, a fraction would eventually have a "normal life" if no hormone treatment is done. Lets say its 10%. So by giving 100% of eligible teenagers hormone treatment this wound mean 10% are permanently harmed versus giving no teenager hormone treatment where 90% would eventually get it anyway when they are older. Which doesn't seem to have a measurable negative effect on their overall mental health and well-being. Then this would mean no early treatment for anyone safes 10% or the other way around early treatment causes 10% collateral damage. Obviously there has to be a middle ground somewhere but I would say there is good evidence that pushing/motivating people/kids/teenagers is overall likely doing more harm than good. And pushing/motivating based on some personal ideology is not in the interest of the people/kids/teens anyway. They may truly believe what they do helps and have no intention to harm anyone but so do the Scientology people. It just not what a school should do.
  - lern_too_spel 5y ago
    You're ignoring that, as I pointed out, all of the choices are bad, and all of the choices are permanent. You want to make the choice for others, which is clearly worse. You're also confused into thinking that the school is encouraging one option when the article doesn't even suggest that is happening. Instead, it says teachers encourage students who show interest into joining Gay Straight Alliances to help prevent violence against LGBT people regardless of their personal medical choices.
    - DanBC 5y ago
      Puberty blockers are not permanent.
      - noxer 5y ago
        The blockers aren't but the damage they can cause can be very permanent.
        DanBC 5y ago
        No, this untrue. There is no long term harm associated with puberty blockers. I wish the anti-trans crowd would be more honest. Just come out and say that you hate trans people, that you wish to roll-back the hard-won rights they have at the moment; that you disagree with the international scientific and medical community about best treatment; that you're happy to lie about the evidence to try to sound more reasonable and less hate-driven.
        noxer 5y ago
        This is totally absurd. Of cause it has long therm effects whether these effects are declared as "harm" or not is subjective and whether they can be "legally" associated to puberty blockers is p much irrelevant. It obviously has long term side effects and some are potentially unwanted and permanent. And declaring everyone who disagrees with you as anti-trans who want to take people rights away and what not, make you the intolerant, hate-drive person you seem to see in others.

lern_too_spel 5y ago

The victims are better off than they were before. Before, they were harassed and beaten. Now, they have a choice. They can either medicate with psychiatric drugs, simply express themselves as the gender they feel themselves to be, or surgically and hormonally change themselves. None of those three options will let them live the lives they wish to lead, but the best option is different for different people, and they have the choice to figure out which is best for them without society responding with violence.

noxer 5y ago
The goal should obviously be to end any violence at all and give people free choice. But AFAIK no decision they make fundamentally changes anything. Hormones, surgery etc. don't seem to solve anything statistically speaking. For example you frequently head that hormone therapy should be stated as early as possible to get the best desired result but if you look at suicide data, earlier hormone treatment does not reduce suicides. Neither does surgery. Should the people sill have their free will to chose? Yes, absolutely but as early as possible? Probably not. Young people make stupid decisions that's why they are not allowed to do certain things and decide certain things. If a kid isn't allowed to get a tattoo why is it controversial that it isn't allowed to take hormones that permanently alter their body and make them infertile. Also lets just assume that from all teenager going trough puberty that would be eligible for hormone therapy on the basis of their own decision, a fraction would eventually have a "normal life" if no hormone treatment is done. Lets say its 10%. So by giving 100% of eligible teenagers hormone treatment this wound mean 10% are permanently harmed versus giving no teenager hormone treatment where 90% would eventually get it anyway when they are older. Which doesn't seem to have a measurable negative effect on their overall mental health and well-being. Then this would mean no early treatment for anyone safes 10% or the other way around early treatment causes 10% collateral damage. Obviously there has to be a middle ground somewhere but I would say there is good evidence that pushing/motivating people/kids/teenagers is overall likely doing more harm than good. And pushing/motivating based on some personal ideology is not in the interest of the people/kids/teens anyway. They may truly believe what they do helps and have no intention to harm anyone but so do the Scientology people. It just not what a school should do.
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  You're ignoring that, as I pointed out, all of the choices are bad, and all of the choices are permanent. You want to make the choice for others, which is clearly worse. You're also confused into thinking that the school is encouraging one option when the article doesn't even suggest that is happening. Instead, it says teachers encourage students who show interest into joining Gay Straight Alliances to help prevent violence against LGBT people regardless of their personal medical choices.
  - DanBC 5y ago
    Puberty blockers are not permanent.
    - noxer 5y ago
      The blockers aren't but the damage they can cause can be very permanent.
      - DanBC 5y ago
        No, this untrue. There is no long term harm associated with puberty blockers. I wish the anti-trans crowd would be more honest. Just come out and say that you hate trans people, that you wish to roll-back the hard-won rights they have at the moment; that you disagree with the international scientific and medical community about best treatment; that you're happy to lie about the evidence to try to sound more reasonable and less hate-driven.
        noxer 5y ago
        This is totally absurd. Of cause it has long therm effects whether these effects are declared as "harm" or not is subjective and whether they can be "legally" associated to puberty blockers is p much irrelevant. It obviously has long term side effects and some are potentially unwanted and permanent. And declaring everyone who disagrees with you as anti-trans who want to take people rights away and what not, make you the intolerant, hate-drive person you seem to see in others.