4 ms·

That's a very good argument for the need to build much more renewable capacity in Germany, since that would substitute the burning of natural gas that caused th

by jhgb 5y ago

That's a very good argument for the need to build much more renewable capacity in Germany, since that would substitute the burning of natural gas that caused this price increase.

AstralStorm 5y ago
Sure, we'll see it when it happens. Renewables are like a trickle at best, all the low hanging fruit there is taken, and the required battery capacity is huge....
- jhgb 5y ago
  There is no battery capacity required for the simple effect of substituting gas power plant operation. Any MWh generated by another source will simply remove the need to generate that MWh from gas, where the price of gas is the dominating component.
  - kspacewalk2 5y ago
    Not really. This is overly simplistic since it's not accounting for reliability/predictability of supply. Natural gas can be turned into MWh on demand, at night, when there's no wind, during consumption anomalies, etc. It's clearly not interchangeable with renewables MWh for MWh like you're suggesting.
    - dispat0r 5y ago
      You also have to pay the gas. Gas backups for power are just stupid without any own supply. In winter, we also need the gas for heating, that will not change in the next 30-40 years.
- wumpus 5y ago
  > Renewables are like a trickle at best Doesn't Germany have a lot of wind power? Denmark sure does. Let's see, 27.2% wind in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany And apparently there's a fair bit of North Sea area that can be used for new offshore wind.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    Percentages are misleading when it comes to power sources that only work some of the time.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      It would be really fascinating to see hourly/monthly percentages as a stacked bar chart.
    - wumpus 5y ago
      That wasn't theoretical installed base, it was actual power produced.
      - tmikaeld 5y ago
        Do you only use electricity only some hours a day? No it’s usage need to be constant, or you'll get black-outs in regions where the grids 50hz frequency cannot be kept - which a lot of communals in Sweden are dangerously close to. And if you don't keep the network balanced, you'll get complete blackouts instead of regional blackouts.
        wumpus 5y ago
        Well, speaking for myself, I do use different amounts of electricity during the day. As does everyone in my region. And your region, probably.
        tmikaeld 5y ago
        But you want to be able to use electricity when you need it, right?
      - robertlagrant 5y ago
        > That wasn't theoretical installed base, it was actual power produced That's not what I'm saying. On a windy day, then doubling your number of wind turbines will (roughly) double your power output. But if there's no wind, your output drops to zero. Contrast that with nuclear power, where doubling capacity doubles output always. So with nuclear power you could say that based on what current output we have, if we build X more capacity we could retire all polluting energy sources. With wind (say) you can't say that.

by jhgb 5y ago

That's a very good argument for the need to build much more renewable capacity in Germany, since that would substitute the burning of natural gas that caused this price increase.

AstralStorm 5y ago

Sure, we'll see it when it happens. Renewables are like a trickle at best, all the low hanging fruit there is taken, and the required battery capacity is huge....

jhgb 5y ago
There is no battery capacity required for the simple effect of substituting gas power plant operation. Any MWh generated by another source will simply remove the need to generate that MWh from gas, where the price of gas is the dominating component.
- kspacewalk2 5y ago
  Not really. This is overly simplistic since it's not accounting for reliability/predictability of supply. Natural gas can be turned into MWh on demand, at night, when there's no wind, during consumption anomalies, etc. It's clearly not interchangeable with renewables MWh for MWh like you're suggesting.
  - dispat0r 5y ago
    You also have to pay the gas. Gas backups for power are just stupid without any own supply. In winter, we also need the gas for heating, that will not change in the next 30-40 years.
wumpus 5y ago
> Renewables are like a trickle at best Doesn't Germany have a lot of wind power? Denmark sure does. Let's see, 27.2% wind in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Germany And apparently there's a fair bit of North Sea area that can be used for new offshore wind.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  Percentages are misleading when it comes to power sources that only work some of the time.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    It would be really fascinating to see hourly/monthly percentages as a stacked bar chart.
  - wumpus 5y ago
    That wasn't theoretical installed base, it was actual power produced.
    - tmikaeld 5y ago
      Do you only use electricity only some hours a day? No it’s usage need to be constant, or you'll get black-outs in regions where the grids 50hz frequency cannot be kept - which a lot of communals in Sweden are dangerously close to. And if you don't keep the network balanced, you'll get complete blackouts instead of regional blackouts.
      - wumpus 5y ago
        Well, speaking for myself, I do use different amounts of electricity during the day. As does everyone in my region. And your region, probably.
        tmikaeld 5y ago
        But you want to be able to use electricity when you need it, right?
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
      > That wasn't theoretical installed base, it was actual power produced That's not what I'm saying. On a windy day, then doubling your number of wind turbines will (roughly) double your power output. But if there's no wind, your output drops to zero. Contrast that with nuclear power, where doubling capacity doubles output always. So with nuclear power you could say that based on what current output we have, if we build X more capacity we could retire all polluting energy sources. With wind (say) you can't say that.