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Isn’t it still the case that a large percentage of hospitalizations are people who refused to get vaccinated? Is there any reason to believe these same folks wo

Isn’t it still the case that a large percentage of hospitalizations are people who refused to get vaccinated? Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this?

kenjackson 5y ago
The people who refuse vaccines don't do it for a really strong principled reason, AFAICT. I think they compartmentalize vaccines and the industry that makes them completely distinct from the rest of the pharma industry. Even more than that they view the Covid vaccine differently than flu or any other vaccine - largely for political reasons.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Some do, some don't. I know two anti-vaxxers and one of them takes medication for mental illness and the other doesn't trust any doctors for any reason but does all kinds of homeopathy and other psuedoscientific shit.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  I think people who refuse or are reluctant to be vaccinated do it for a variety of reasons. Some (I think a minority) are some degree of conspiracy nuts who think it's all a plot to reduce population and enable government mind control via altered DNA, etc. Some don't trust that the speed of the process as well as the immense political pressure to "do something" really sussed out the true effectiveness, safety, and immunity conferred by the vaccines, noting that coronaviruses have never had successful vaccines before now, as they mutate too rapidly. I'm in the second camp. I viewed the situation as entirely different from traditional, well studied vaccines for endemic diseases such as measles, mumps, etc. I eventually did get vaccinated as I was under threat to lose my job if I didn't. I didn't want it otherwise, and time has shown that they aren't nearly as effective as initially promised. Most of the initial promises that the vaccines were the key to ending the pandemic have turned out to be wrong, the only thing we can really now say is that they offer some (short-term?) protection to the recipient, and at least in the case of the Janssen/J&J vaccine they are not as safe as promised either. I will add that I don't like doctors, and I'm not a pill-popper. I don't take medicines that I don't need. I would be loathe to take any long-term prescription meds for any reason. Short term courses of antibiotics I will use. Other OTC very sparingly. I don't think I've taken more than a few Advils in the past 5 years, and that was when I had a tooth extracted.
  - pcan77 5y ago
    I honestly think you severely underestimate the amount of people not taking it due to being conspiracy nuts. I never thought I'd know ANYONE like this, but now almost every antivaxxer I know has some crackpot insanity reason for not getting vaccinated. None of them are worried about safety, FDA approval, etc. Hell my FIL thinks COVID-19 was meant to bring the endtimes so Jesus will come back and the rapture will happen. So do ALL of his constituents of his Church more or less. So let's not mitigate the crackpots to a "minority" because it's simply not true.
    - arghnoname 5y ago
      One problem here is there are two camps in the vaccine resistant group: 1. Those who did not want to take the vaccine but did 2. Those who will not take the vaccine under nearly any condition With many people's jobs being threatened and ability to eat in restaurants, etc being limited, most unvaxxed are in the second camp. At this stage I'd say they must have very strong feelings on it and are more likely to think the vaccine is much more dangerous than the data suggests or has some other nefarious purpose. I'm vaccinated and I did it voluntarily as it seemed like it met the risk/reward trade-off for me. I've always been against mandates. I probably won't take the current booster unless forced (more of the same for a very different and likely mild variant meet my cost/benefit threshold), but I will take it if my job hinges on it. Rational people weigh cost/benefit. Losing your job definitely tilts the ledger, but I imagine many people who felt coerced into their decision are pretty sore over it and we will suffer some serious political repercussions for this, in my view, unnecessary mandate.
  - jmull 5y ago
    > Some don't trust that the speed of the process as well as the immense political pressure to "do something" really sussed out the true… [etc] This is your “second camp” but I don’t see how this isn’t another form of conspiracy nut. You’ve just got a suspicion that things aren’t right and are fact-fitting to that. If you’re measuring risks, there’s no comparison between Unvaccinated vs. Vaccinated.
- coolso 5y ago
  > The people who refuse vaccines don't do it for a really strong principled reason, AFAICT. I am very often around circles of people who haven't been vaccinated: family members, friends, friends of family members, friends of friends, etc. There's a good mix between political reasons, and principled reasons. Most fall into the latter group, including myself: I refused to get the vaccine until it was in general availability for at least 6 months. This was the time period I felt comfortable with where I figured if any issues were to arise, we'd have found out about it by then. Others have longer personal time frames. Others don't want to get it at all. But usually, it is for a strong principled reason. The fact of the matter is, past vaccines have caused issues; vaccines are not without their risks. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? Absolutely! But it's a personal choice. At this point, with all the data we've seen with how harmless and beneficial they are, I believe it to be an unwise one to not get vaxxed, but it's a personal choice nonetheless. > Even more than that they view the Covid vaccine differently than flu or any other vaccine - largely for political reasons. But, in fact, the COVID vaccine is very different than any other vaccine. Not only is it brand new technology that to this point was a failure in other trials with other diseases, it was also fast-tracked and released far sooner than any other in history. And it is for a virus that largely most severely affects the elderly, obese, and those with preexisting conditions. People also forget that the very news organizations and politicians pretentiously shaming people for not getting vaccinated today, are the very same news organizations and politicians that spread fear and doubt about the vaccine just prior to the election. [0] Our current president did the same thing. Perhaps if they didn't politicize it in the first place, or even plant seeds of fear...they would have more of a leg to stand on when it comes to being so divisive about the matter. [0]: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccin...
deleted 5y ago
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jdavis703 5y ago
Yes, because a lot of people falsely believe the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of COVID—19. But once you contract COVID you move in to a new higher-risk pool. There have been news stories of unvaccinated people asking for the vaccine once they’re hospitalized, which by then is sadly too late.
- lettergram 5y ago
  > There have been news stories We call that propaganda and advertisements... We don’t see the millions in the other category.
  - erulabs 5y ago
    Sorry, what other category? The logical inverse of "unvaccinated folks who caught covid now asking for vaccines" is... "vaccinated folks who didn't get covid who now want to be... unvaccinated?". I guess I don't understand your assertion.
    - lettergram 5y ago
      - Vaccinated who have had serious side effects and wish they didn’t take it - unvaccinated who get covid and are fine (the vast majority) - someone vaccinated who still got severely sick and may die Pretty much any other slant of “news”.
- apendleton 5y ago
  It's also too late for antiviral drugs, though, FWIW. This drug needs to be taken within three days of symptom onset. By the time most people are hospitalized, the viral phase of illness is pretty much over.
  - jdavis703 5y ago
    I was referring to various antivirals, not just protease inhibitors. Plenty of patients are given monoclonal antibody infusions during hospitalization (see for example the former US president).
coolso 5y ago
> Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this? Yes, from the very beginning those who weren't comfortable with taking the vaccine have had hope for alternative medications from the pharmaceutical industry. See: hydrochloroquine, ivermectin, et. al. It all needs to be put in the context of the vaccine being the fastest approved vaccine ever; vaccines having issues in the past; CNN, Joe Biden, etc. spreading FUD about the "warp speed" nature of the vaccine as late as October of last year (prior to the election); and, most of all, the propensity for humans to prefer to take inaction that won't necessarily cause them harm. e.g., if you don't get a vaccine, you may get COVID, you might not, it may be minor, it may be severe. But it's one of those "whatever will be, will be" sort of things. Whereas if one is wary of the vaccine, and they willingly get it, they perceive they may be playing a direct, active role in bringing harm to themselves. But once you know you have COVID, you have it, therefore there's no other option than to take action.
- ssharp 5y ago
  If you listen to the anti-vax crowd, a lot of the push-back is because the vaccines are new, only had emergency-use authorization, no long-term studies, etc. This pill will fit into most of those objections as well. HCQ, ivermectin, and the like have all been around for a long time and even though their was no clinical efficacy on COVID, the anti-vax crowd was onboard with them because they have been around for so long.
  - giarc 5y ago
    So it's likely all in the messaging. If they can get Fox News, Joe Rogen, Trump et al to endorse this pill, it might just convince them.
- zpeti 5y ago
  > CNN, Joe Biden, etc. spreading FUD about the "warp speed" nature I love the posts on twitter of people who basically said in early 2020 they would never ever take a vaccine approved by Trump. And by late 2021 they are saying the unvaccinated are the scum of the earth basically. Consistent ;)
Alex3917 5y ago
> Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this? There are also a lot of folks who can't get vaccinated, who would take this. I suspect a lot of the folks who refuse to get vaccinated would take this if they were hospitalized with Covid. But since you don't usually get hospitalized until a week after you get symptoms, many won't have the option anyway.
boc 5y ago
One of my friends is an ICU nurse. My friend just laughs now when asked about whether vaccination works because nearly every single person in the ICU for the past few months has been unvaccinated. One patient was basically 50/50 to die on the surgery table during a mechanical heart transplant due to covid destroying their natural heart, miraculously lived through it, and had the nerve to ask my friend whether they still needed to be vaccinated after they were being wheeled into the recovery area. It's almost comical the cognitive dissonance to challenge the team of doctors who literally just saved your life when they tell you to get the vaccine. Being anti-vax is basically a religion at this point, so there's no use trying to convince people.
- zpeti 5y ago
  While I agree being anti vax is something like a religion, the facts in your post are wrong, as has been pointed out by so many news outlets recently that even the CDC was bullshitting when they said 90% of ICU patients are unvaxxed.
  - Klinky 5y ago
    Please provide reputable sources showing "CDC was bullshitting when they said 90% of ICU patients are unvaxxed". I am not even sure CDC was directly making such claims and some of the 90% figures were directly from regional hospital systems, not the CDC.
    - jerlam 5y ago
      The confusion (intentional or not) may stem from that 90% figure being of all ICU patients, covid or not, or just as a proportion of covid patients. People are still getting into car accidents, shot, and having heart attacks.
    - spfzero 5y ago
      As a datapoint, my county publishes daily hospitalizations by vaccination status. Some vaccinated people are showing up, maybe 15-20%. So less than 90% unvaccinated there. But that is just hospitalization. For more serious outcomes I'd guess the unvaccinated percentage is higher even than 90%.
CPLX 5y ago
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. My understanding is people change their whole tune pretty quick when they're in abject misery from catching Covid.
- giarc 5y ago
  Problem is that by the time they get there, it's likely too late. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect many of these oral treatments need to be started early in the infection.
- lolinder 5y ago
  Not my experience. I've got several family members who are vigorously antivax. One was laid out by covid for a week plus lost a brother-in-law to it. Another persuaded her sister to avoid the vaccine and the sister is still on oxygen after spending weeks in the hospital with covid. Neither one has changed their tune at all.
- elzbardico 5y ago
  Most people don’t get in abject misery when they get COVID. In fact the vas majority doesn’t even realize it
petesergeant 5y ago
> [Paxlovid] is sometimes falsely claimed to be a "repackaged" version of the antiparasitic drug ivermectin, which has been questionably promoted as a COVID-19 therapeutic Suspect this will help, ironically
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  - vibrato2 5y ago
  - parkingrift 5y ago
fnord77 5y ago
ctennis1 5y ago
Don't underestimate the large number of people who are also completely scared of doctors and needles. Being able to get something they can pickup at a pharmacy and take in their own home is a win.
rsynnott 5y ago
It seems likely that a forthcoming date with a ventilator might focus some peoples' minds... As far as I know, most anti-vaxers do accept treatment if they end up in hospital.

Isn’t it still the case that a large percentage of hospitalizations are people who refused to get vaccinated? Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this?

kenjackson 5y ago

The people who refuse vaccines don't do it for a really strong principled reason, AFAICT. I think they compartmentalize vaccines and the industry that makes them completely distinct from the rest of the pharma industry. Even more than that they view the Covid vaccine differently than flu or any other vaccine - largely for political reasons.

guerrilla 5y ago
Some do, some don't. I know two anti-vaxxers and one of them takes medication for mental illness and the other doesn't trust any doctors for any reason but does all kinds of homeopathy and other psuedoscientific shit.
throwawayboise 5y ago
I think people who refuse or are reluctant to be vaccinated do it for a variety of reasons. Some (I think a minority) are some degree of conspiracy nuts who think it's all a plot to reduce population and enable government mind control via altered DNA, etc. Some don't trust that the speed of the process as well as the immense political pressure to "do something" really sussed out the true effectiveness, safety, and immunity conferred by the vaccines, noting that coronaviruses have never had successful vaccines before now, as they mutate too rapidly. I'm in the second camp. I viewed the situation as entirely different from traditional, well studied vaccines for endemic diseases such as measles, mumps, etc. I eventually did get vaccinated as I was under threat to lose my job if I didn't. I didn't want it otherwise, and time has shown that they aren't nearly as effective as initially promised. Most of the initial promises that the vaccines were the key to ending the pandemic have turned out to be wrong, the only thing we can really now say is that they offer some (short-term?) protection to the recipient, and at least in the case of the Janssen/J&J vaccine they are not as safe as promised either. I will add that I don't like doctors, and I'm not a pill-popper. I don't take medicines that I don't need. I would be loathe to take any long-term prescription meds for any reason. Short term courses of antibiotics I will use. Other OTC very sparingly. I don't think I've taken more than a few Advils in the past 5 years, and that was when I had a tooth extracted.
- pcan77 5y ago
  I honestly think you severely underestimate the amount of people not taking it due to being conspiracy nuts. I never thought I'd know ANYONE like this, but now almost every antivaxxer I know has some crackpot insanity reason for not getting vaccinated. None of them are worried about safety, FDA approval, etc. Hell my FIL thinks COVID-19 was meant to bring the endtimes so Jesus will come back and the rapture will happen. So do ALL of his constituents of his Church more or less. So let's not mitigate the crackpots to a "minority" because it's simply not true.
  - arghnoname 5y ago
    One problem here is there are two camps in the vaccine resistant group: 1. Those who did not want to take the vaccine but did 2. Those who will not take the vaccine under nearly any condition With many people's jobs being threatened and ability to eat in restaurants, etc being limited, most unvaxxed are in the second camp. At this stage I'd say they must have very strong feelings on it and are more likely to think the vaccine is much more dangerous than the data suggests or has some other nefarious purpose. I'm vaccinated and I did it voluntarily as it seemed like it met the risk/reward trade-off for me. I've always been against mandates. I probably won't take the current booster unless forced (more of the same for a very different and likely mild variant meet my cost/benefit threshold), but I will take it if my job hinges on it. Rational people weigh cost/benefit. Losing your job definitely tilts the ledger, but I imagine many people who felt coerced into their decision are pretty sore over it and we will suffer some serious political repercussions for this, in my view, unnecessary mandate.
- jmull 5y ago
  > Some don't trust that the speed of the process as well as the immense political pressure to "do something" really sussed out the true… [etc] This is your “second camp” but I don’t see how this isn’t another form of conspiracy nut. You’ve just got a suspicion that things aren’t right and are fact-fitting to that. If you’re measuring risks, there’s no comparison between Unvaccinated vs. Vaccinated.
coolso 5y ago
> The people who refuse vaccines don't do it for a really strong principled reason, AFAICT. I am very often around circles of people who haven't been vaccinated: family members, friends, friends of family members, friends of friends, etc. There's a good mix between political reasons, and principled reasons. Most fall into the latter group, including myself: I refused to get the vaccine until it was in general availability for at least 6 months. This was the time period I felt comfortable with where I figured if any issues were to arise, we'd have found out about it by then. Others have longer personal time frames. Others don't want to get it at all. But usually, it is for a strong principled reason. The fact of the matter is, past vaccines have caused issues; vaccines are not without their risks. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? Absolutely! But it's a personal choice. At this point, with all the data we've seen with how harmless and beneficial they are, I believe it to be an unwise one to not get vaxxed, but it's a personal choice nonetheless. > Even more than that they view the Covid vaccine differently than flu or any other vaccine - largely for political reasons. But, in fact, the COVID vaccine is very different than any other vaccine. Not only is it brand new technology that to this point was a failure in other trials with other diseases, it was also fast-tracked and released far sooner than any other in history. And it is for a virus that largely most severely affects the elderly, obese, and those with preexisting conditions. People also forget that the very news organizations and politicians pretentiously shaming people for not getting vaccinated today, are the very same news organizations and politicians that spread fear and doubt about the vaccine just prior to the election. [0] Our current president did the same thing. Perhaps if they didn't politicize it in the first place, or even plant seeds of fear...they would have more of a leg to stand on when it comes to being so divisive about the matter. [0]: https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccine-history/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/01/health/eua-coronavirus-vaccin...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jdavis703 5y ago

Yes, because a lot of people falsely believe the risk of the vaccine is greater than the risk of COVID—19. But once you contract COVID you move in to a new higher-risk pool. There have been news stories of unvaccinated people asking for the vaccine once they’re hospitalized, which by then is sadly too late.

lettergram 5y ago
> There have been news stories We call that propaganda and advertisements... We don’t see the millions in the other category.
- erulabs 5y ago
  Sorry, what other category? The logical inverse of "unvaccinated folks who caught covid now asking for vaccines" is... "vaccinated folks who didn't get covid who now want to be... unvaccinated?". I guess I don't understand your assertion.
  - lettergram 5y ago
    - Vaccinated who have had serious side effects and wish they didn’t take it - unvaccinated who get covid and are fine (the vast majority) - someone vaccinated who still got severely sick and may die Pretty much any other slant of “news”.
apendleton 5y ago
It's also too late for antiviral drugs, though, FWIW. This drug needs to be taken within three days of symptom onset. By the time most people are hospitalized, the viral phase of illness is pretty much over.
- jdavis703 5y ago
  I was referring to various antivirals, not just protease inhibitors. Plenty of patients are given monoclonal antibody infusions during hospitalization (see for example the former US president).

coolso 5y ago

> Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this? Yes, from the very beginning those who weren't comfortable with taking the vaccine have had hope for alternative medications from the pharmaceutical industry. See: hydrochloroquine, ivermectin, et. al. It all needs to be put in the context of the vaccine being the fastest approved vaccine ever; vaccines having issues in the past; CNN, Joe Biden, etc. spreading FUD about the "warp speed" nature of the vaccine as late as October of last year (prior to the election); and, most of all, the propensity for humans to prefer to take inaction that won't necessarily cause them harm. e.g., if you don't get a vaccine, you may get COVID, you might not, it may be minor, it may be severe. But it's one of those "whatever will be, will be" sort of things. Whereas if one is wary of the vaccine, and they willingly get it, they perceive they may be playing a direct, active role in bringing harm to themselves. But once you know you have COVID, you have it, therefore there's no other option than to take action.

ssharp 5y ago
If you listen to the anti-vax crowd, a lot of the push-back is because the vaccines are new, only had emergency-use authorization, no long-term studies, etc. This pill will fit into most of those objections as well. HCQ, ivermectin, and the like have all been around for a long time and even though their was no clinical efficacy on COVID, the anti-vax crowd was onboard with them because they have been around for so long.
- giarc 5y ago
  So it's likely all in the messaging. If they can get Fox News, Joe Rogen, Trump et al to endorse this pill, it might just convince them.
zpeti 5y ago
> CNN, Joe Biden, etc. spreading FUD about the "warp speed" nature I love the posts on twitter of people who basically said in early 2020 they would never ever take a vaccine approved by Trump. And by late 2021 they are saying the unvaccinated are the scum of the earth basically. Consistent ;)

Alex3917 5y ago

> Is there any reason to believe these same folks would willingly take this? There are also a lot of folks who can't get vaccinated, who would take this. I suspect a lot of the folks who refuse to get vaccinated would take this if they were hospitalized with Covid. But since you don't usually get hospitalized until a week after you get symptoms, many won't have the option anyway.

boc 5y ago

One of my friends is an ICU nurse. My friend just laughs now when asked about whether vaccination works because nearly every single person in the ICU for the past few months has been unvaccinated. One patient was basically 50/50 to die on the surgery table during a mechanical heart transplant due to covid destroying their natural heart, miraculously lived through it, and had the nerve to ask my friend whether they still needed to be vaccinated after they were being wheeled into the recovery area. It's almost comical the cognitive dissonance to challenge the team of doctors who literally just saved your life when they tell you to get the vaccine. Being anti-vax is basically a religion at this point, so there's no use trying to convince people.

zpeti 5y ago
While I agree being anti vax is something like a religion, the facts in your post are wrong, as has been pointed out by so many news outlets recently that even the CDC was bullshitting when they said 90% of ICU patients are unvaxxed.
- Klinky 5y ago
  Please provide reputable sources showing "CDC was bullshitting when they said 90% of ICU patients are unvaxxed". I am not even sure CDC was directly making such claims and some of the 90% figures were directly from regional hospital systems, not the CDC.
  - jerlam 5y ago
    The confusion (intentional or not) may stem from that 90% figure being of all ICU patients, covid or not, or just as a proportion of covid patients. People are still getting into car accidents, shot, and having heart attacks.
  - spfzero 5y ago
    As a datapoint, my county publishes daily hospitalizations by vaccination status. Some vaccinated people are showing up, maybe 15-20%. So less than 90% unvaccinated there. But that is just hospitalization. For more serious outcomes I'd guess the unvaccinated percentage is higher even than 90%.

CPLX 5y ago

Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. My understanding is people change their whole tune pretty quick when they're in abject misery from catching Covid.

giarc 5y ago
Problem is that by the time they get there, it's likely too late. I haven't seen the data, but I suspect many of these oral treatments need to be started early in the infection.
lolinder 5y ago
Not my experience. I've got several family members who are vigorously antivax. One was laid out by covid for a week plus lost a brother-in-law to it. Another persuaded her sister to avoid the vaccine and the sister is still on oxygen after spending weeks in the hospital with covid. Neither one has changed their tune at all.
elzbardico 5y ago
Most people don’t get in abject misery when they get COVID. In fact the vas majority doesn’t even realize it

petesergeant 5y ago

> [Paxlovid] is sometimes falsely claimed to be a "repackaged" version of the antiparasitic drug ivermectin, which has been questionably promoted as a COVID-19 therapeutic Suspect this will help, ironically

rich_sasha 5y ago
- vibrato2 5y ago
- parkingrift 5y ago

fnord77 5y ago

ctennis1 5y ago

Don't underestimate the large number of people who are also completely scared of doctors and needles. Being able to get something they can pickup at a pharmacy and take in their own home is a win.

rsynnott 5y ago

It seems likely that a forthcoming date with a ventilator might focus some peoples' minds... As far as I know, most anti-vaxers do accept treatment if they end up in hospital.