4 ms·

I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. How can usage of a Mossad / IDF tool be considered l

by jprd 5y ago

I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. How can usage of a Mossad / IDF tool be considered legitimate? Just because the ruling party in a state decides so, doesn't mean this has any bearing on human rights or _legitimacy_. China is eradicating Uyghur culture and running for-profit concentration camps. These are legitimate uses of their Governmental powers. Does that make them ethical? Of course not. Technology like this is dystopian and anti-humanity. There is no way that this technology is profitable, exported and somehow used for "legitimate" purposes. The entire enterprise is predicated on making vulnerable people more vulnerable. The end result is more Khashoggi awfulness, how could it NOT be?

jimkleiber 5y ago
I'd say mostly because we don't have transnational law that has teeth. Most nations have laws prohibiting murder, yet if one nation does it to another nation, somehow it's not illegal. I think many of us may fear a transnational government, yet we have transnational organized crime, transnational companies, transnational communication networks, etc. at some point, I hope we also get more transnational governance to balance some of those other entities.
jeroenhd 5y ago
In a well-functioning system (of which there are very few in this world), it's possible to use these tools responsibly. For example, you could secure access and get insight into a terrorist ring using encrypted messengers, once the necessary paperwork has been done, reviewed and approved by an independent judge. Phone taps and internet taps worked great until everything became encrypted. Hard drives that cannot be accessed, conversations that cannot be monitored, you name it; the governments of the world have a difficult decision to make after about 120 years of easy access to criminal's conspiracies. I'm not sure if there's any system of government in the world I'd currently trust with this power, but it's not inherently impossible to use these tools ethically. At the end of the day, governments are desperate for a solution for the encrypted nature of modern data and communications and don't think that there are any other solutions than either allowing the police to hack or banning/restricting encryption. I'm not sure which option I prefer, but I believe (fear) either will become the accepted norm within our lifetimes.
seoaeu 5y ago
Countries conducting espionage is a well established and has been done for centuries. At the same time, the CIA doesn't get court orders when they want to listen in on FSB agents, nor vice versa. I don't see why Uganda should be held to different standards or why partnering with an Israeli company instead of developing the tools themselves should matter here.
- tclancy 5y ago
  Ok, but why carry water for that or them?
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  It's not Uganda that's being held to account here. Its NSO, and not just for selling to Uganda.
kshacker 5y ago
> I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. In general, I am against government overreach, so I agree with a lot of what you said. However, let us say I have a court order to surveil person X - how am I ever going to get all the information when they could be communicating via a phone call, SMS, iMessage, whatsapp, gmail, facebook messenger, signal, telegram, discord and a myriad of other mechanisms with a myriad of identities. The easiest solution for me (the snooper) would be to surveil your entire phone, including click history and screenshots when feasible. No? Once again, let us forget the person side for a minute. Let us talk about someone with genuine need to surveil. How will ever do it with today's technology? It aint easy.
- filoeleven 5y ago
  Half of those services will happily share all of that person’s data when handed a warrant. Some don’t even require that much. On the flipside, a snooper will always have to do a monumental and maybe impossible amount of work to break a one-time pad by chipping away at the security that surrounds it. What makes security tech fundamentally different? Why should it be easy to break? A warrant lets someone search my belongings; it does not compel me to give law enforcement the information they are seeking.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > A warrant lets someone search my belongings; it does not compel me > to give law enforcement the information they are seeking. This is the issue. An investigator's limited permission to search a specific aspect of one's belongings does not infringe upon one's right to be secure in the remainder of his belongings. At least, not in the context of nations which have explicitly granted that right.
ummonk 5y ago
What makes you think Uganda or China wouldn't be able to get court orders to sign off on their respective actions?

by jprd 5y ago

jimkleiber 5y ago

I'd say mostly because we don't have transnational law that has teeth. Most nations have laws prohibiting murder, yet if one nation does it to another nation, somehow it's not illegal. I think many of us may fear a transnational government, yet we have transnational organized crime, transnational companies, transnational communication networks, etc. at some point, I hope we also get more transnational governance to balance some of those other entities.

jeroenhd 5y ago

In a well-functioning system (of which there are very few in this world), it's possible to use these tools responsibly. For example, you could secure access and get insight into a terrorist ring using encrypted messengers, once the necessary paperwork has been done, reviewed and approved by an independent judge. Phone taps and internet taps worked great until everything became encrypted. Hard drives that cannot be accessed, conversations that cannot be monitored, you name it; the governments of the world have a difficult decision to make after about 120 years of easy access to criminal's conspiracies. I'm not sure if there's any system of government in the world I'd currently trust with this power, but it's not inherently impossible to use these tools ethically. At the end of the day, governments are desperate for a solution for the encrypted nature of modern data and communications and don't think that there are any other solutions than either allowing the police to hack or banning/restricting encryption. I'm not sure which option I prefer, but I believe (fear) either will become the accepted norm within our lifetimes.

seoaeu 5y ago

Countries conducting espionage is a well established and has been done for centuries. At the same time, the CIA doesn't get court orders when they want to listen in on FSB agents, nor vice versa. I don't see why Uganda should be held to different standards or why partnering with an Israeli company instead of developing the tools themselves should matter here.

tclancy 5y ago
Ok, but why carry water for that or them?
Sporktacular 5y ago
It's not Uganda that's being held to account here. Its NSO, and not just for selling to Uganda.

kshacker 5y ago

> I cannot see a world in which use of NSO tech is legitimate. Get a court order to tap the phone line, etc. In general, I am against government overreach, so I agree with a lot of what you said. However, let us say I have a court order to surveil person X - how am I ever going to get all the information when they could be communicating via a phone call, SMS, iMessage, whatsapp, gmail, facebook messenger, signal, telegram, discord and a myriad of other mechanisms with a myriad of identities. The easiest solution for me (the snooper) would be to surveil your entire phone, including click history and screenshots when feasible. No? Once again, let us forget the person side for a minute. Let us talk about someone with genuine need to surveil. How will ever do it with today's technology? It aint easy.

filoeleven 5y ago
Half of those services will happily share all of that person’s data when handed a warrant. Some don’t even require that much. On the flipside, a snooper will always have to do a monumental and maybe impossible amount of work to break a one-time pad by chipping away at the security that surrounds it. What makes security tech fundamentally different? Why should it be easy to break? A warrant lets someone search my belongings; it does not compel me to give law enforcement the information they are seeking.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > A warrant lets someone search my belongings; it does not compel me > to give law enforcement the information they are seeking. This is the issue. An investigator's limited permission to search a specific aspect of one's belongings does not infringe upon one's right to be secure in the remainder of his belongings. At least, not in the context of nations which have explicitly granted that right.

ummonk 5y ago

What makes you think Uganda or China wouldn't be able to get court orders to sign off on their respective actions?