4 ms·

>Full disclosure would likely lead to one salary for every person in that role. Why? We have existing systems with full transparency (e.g. CA state employees)

>Full disclosure would likely lead to one salary for every person in that role. Why? We have existing systems with full transparency (e.g. CA state employees) and this proposed trend has never come to pass

warner25 5y ago
I'm in the US military, and although there isn't a public spreadsheet with a line for "warner25: $xxx,xxx" you could work out my income if you knew my rank, years of service, location, etc. along with how our pay is structured. Most people outside the system (i.e. my parents and extended family) wouldn't work this out easily, and probably think that my income is much lower than it really is. My co-workers, on the other hand, could probably figure out my income down to the last penny. I think this arrangement doesn't cause strife for two reasons that don't apply to most citizens in the private sector: 1. We knew the deal (how we would get paid, and that it's public knowledge) when we signed up. It's a not a leak. 2. Even if some higher paid co-worker seems like a clown or worse (toxic and counter-productive), we all know exactly what it takes to reach that same level of pay... i.e. a well-defined and generally attainable combination of years, education, certifications, and experiences to get promoted. So you don't need to pay everyone the same amount for the same role, but you do need this kind of deterministic structure. It seems like number 2, in particular, has no equivalent in the private sector where pay is based on fluid market competition and negotiation and the whims or biases of hiring managers.
- aerosmile 5y ago
  Airlines pay just like that (as do taxi companies and most other parts of the transportation industry). Guess what you all have in common? Zero agency. So when you take a job where the ideal output of your labor is 100% deterministic, then it makes sense for your pay to reflect that.
  - warner25 5y ago
    Good point. I was thinking about white-collar knowledge workers but you're right that this exists for many private sector employees who get paid by the hour or have a union.
aerosmile 5y ago
I met with some SF city officials a few years ago to discuss a program that our company was going to run for the city. I've never interacted with a less competent group of people, and we withdrew our proposal simply because we were scared of being affiliated with them in any shape or form. Looking back on what happened to the city since then, it all makes sense. I wonder if the full transparency you're talking about is a part of how the city managed to attract and retain such talent pool. I know that for all of my career I've been worker harder than my peers and have also been compensated accordingly. If someone told me "oh no, [person who I know is less productive] has the same title as you and he never comes late to work, so you can't make more than him," that for sure would have been our last conversation at work. I don't know why most companies don't want to disclose salaries, but every startup I've led did that in order to pay more, not less. You basically look for the most exceptional talent in the world, and then you pay them every last penny you can afford. Same with retention - you want to promote people based on what the market would pay for them, regardless if your current org structure allows for a title promotion (you can only have one senior leader per department at any given time). If I had to disclose everyone's salary, that would only lead to more constraints with being generous on my end, not less.

warner25 5y ago

I'm in the US military, and although there isn't a public spreadsheet with a line for "warner25: $xxx,xxx" you could work out my income if you knew my rank, years of service, location, etc. along with how our pay is structured. Most people outside the system (i.e. my parents and extended family) wouldn't work this out easily, and probably think that my income is much lower than it really is. My co-workers, on the other hand, could probably figure out my income down to the last penny. I think this arrangement doesn't cause strife for two reasons that don't apply to most citizens in the private sector: 1. We knew the deal (how we would get paid, and that it's public knowledge) when we signed up. It's a not a leak. 2. Even if some higher paid co-worker seems like a clown or worse (toxic and counter-productive), we all know exactly what it takes to reach that same level of pay... i.e. a well-defined and generally attainable combination of years, education, certifications, and experiences to get promoted. So you don't need to pay everyone the same amount for the same role, but you do need this kind of deterministic structure. It seems like number 2, in particular, has no equivalent in the private sector where pay is based on fluid market competition and negotiation and the whims or biases of hiring managers.

aerosmile 5y ago
Airlines pay just like that (as do taxi companies and most other parts of the transportation industry). Guess what you all have in common? Zero agency. So when you take a job where the ideal output of your labor is 100% deterministic, then it makes sense for your pay to reflect that.
- warner25 5y ago
  Good point. I was thinking about white-collar knowledge workers but you're right that this exists for many private sector employees who get paid by the hour or have a union.

aerosmile 5y ago

I met with some SF city officials a few years ago to discuss a program that our company was going to run for the city. I've never interacted with a less competent group of people, and we withdrew our proposal simply because we were scared of being affiliated with them in any shape or form. Looking back on what happened to the city since then, it all makes sense. I wonder if the full transparency you're talking about is a part of how the city managed to attract and retain such talent pool. I know that for all of my career I've been worker harder than my peers and have also been compensated accordingly. If someone told me "oh no, [person who I know is less productive] has the same title as you and he never comes late to work, so you can't make more than him," that for sure would have been our last conversation at work. I don't know why most companies don't want to disclose salaries, but every startup I've led did that in order to pay more, not less. You basically look for the most exceptional talent in the world, and then you pay them every last penny you can afford. Same with retention - you want to promote people based on what the market would pay for them, regardless if your current org structure allows for a title promotion (you can only have one senior leader per department at any given time). If I had to disclose everyone's salary, that would only lead to more constraints with being generous on my end, not less.