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/me grins You don't get off that lightly. I am not straw-manning your argument, and i was not the one to raise the issue of eating disorders. My point is tha

/me grins You don't get off that lightly. I am not straw-manning your argument, and i was not the one to raise the issue of eating disorders. My point is that you are ignoring context. Telling someone that they are pretty is not just a one off event that you are offering to another person, to be held in a pristine platonic form. It is an event that takes place in the gestalt of their daily interactions, and more specifically within the context of their interactions with you (and/or people like you). Is a complement about their attractiveness the first thing that they are greeted with? Does their attractiveness have bearing on the social context at hand? (in a work context? in a bar? at a conference discussing technical issues?) > Of course I don't think telling somebody they are pretty will cure their disorders. Really? Cause this sure makes it sounds like you do. At the very least it makes you sound really insensitive to the causes of anorexia nervosa and the factors that go into reenforcing them: > Also, telling somebody they are pretty does NOT imply that you consider anorexic looks to be pretty. In fact, it might give that person a good feeling about herself which just might counter the urge to become anorexic.

Tichy 15y ago
I don't know that much about anorexia, but I suspect it doesn't have to do anything with beauty ideals at all (case in point: anorexia does not look pretty). It is more about control issues (I suppose). I know it can hurt to feel ugly, though, so I don't think it is a bad thing to be reminded now and then that you are not ugly (at least not to everyone). About pretty little girls: I was taught in biology class that babies are actually born to look cute (it is called "Kindchenschema" in German, other mammals also have it). It is a natural reaction to want to care for cute little humans, and it makes sense for little humans to look cute. Sorry I did not understand how you are not creating a strawman. I think you are thinking way too much about all this. It seems important to me to act naturally with children to some extent, and not having to go through a endless mental checklist before reacting to them.
- JonnieCache 15y ago
  Anorexia is absolutely about beauty ideals. Indeed you are right: anorexia does not look pretty; anorexia is about what the patient sees when they look in the mirror: it is a perceptual disorder in a sense. Regardless of the actual weight of the person in the mirror, the anorexic sees an overweight figure looking back at them. Bulimia is more about control, that's the one that involves purging. It usually coexists with anorexia in the same patient, and goes in cycles. The patient keeps undereating due to the distorted perception of their body size, until they become so underweight that even they cannot deny their problem. Then they begin overeating to compensate for this, and then they are racked by shame due to the overeating and start purging, and the whole awful cycle begins again. Anorexia is not a trivial teenage anxiety disorder, it has a survival rate of around 80%. A horrible business.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    Do you have sources for that? Because I really don't think it is correct. I don't know anybody with anorexia, but I know several therapists. Not that I have inquired much about the problem, but I simply have heard different things. In fact the first hit for "anorexia causes" (with DuckDuckGo) seems to confirm my thoughts: http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_treatment.htm http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_t... "Believe it or not, anorexia isn’t really about food and weight—at least not at its core. Eating disorders are much more complicated than that. The food and weight-related issues are symptoms of something deeper: things like depression, loneliness, insecurity, pressure to be perfect, or feeling out of control. Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure." Of course blaming it on beauty ideals conveyed in the media is an easy way out for relations of anorexic persons, who then don't have to confront the real issues.
    - JonnieCache 15y ago
      We are confusing causes with symptoms. Anorexia may well be caused by deeper problems with the person's life, the ones you list in the quote, general sources of depression. However "anorexia" refers to a form of depression that manifests itself in issues with eating and weight. It is not the depression that kills patients, it's the undereating and the vomiting. Therefore it is entirely appropriate to discuss, deal with and treat the eating/food/weight aspects of anorexia patients' lives. When looking to actually cure the patient, therapists will indeed look to deeper issues in the person's psychology/environment. These will likely be specific to the patient, and so it is not really productive to discuss them in general terms accross populations. That can be dangerous, this kind of thinking is what lead to the concept of the "schitzogenic mother." Also, this quote shows a big misunderstanding: "Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure." Nobody claims that weight loss can cure anoreixa. Anorexia is basically the irrational desire for weight loss. Being cured of anorexia essentially involves stopping ones extreme irrational weight loss behaviour, and it is self evident that no amount of weight loss can cure this.
Tichy 15y ago
Sorry I just reread your first post. You seem to be saying that if you tell an anorexic person they are pretty I will be enforcing their anorexia, and if you tell them they are ugly I will also be enforcing their anorexia. You don't mention it, but I suppose if I don't say anything, I silently encourage their behavior, too (being codependent or whatever). So no matter what I do, I am an insensitive prick. See why I don't like your logic? As I said in my other posts, I think there might be deeper issues behind anorexia than what you make them out to be. I really don't think it is about looks, that is just a vehicle. Also, the girl from the article was not anorexic or at least the blogger doesn't mention it.

Tichy 15y ago

I don't know that much about anorexia, but I suspect it doesn't have to do anything with beauty ideals at all (case in point: anorexia does not look pretty). It is more about control issues (I suppose). I know it can hurt to feel ugly, though, so I don't think it is a bad thing to be reminded now and then that you are not ugly (at least not to everyone). About pretty little girls: I was taught in biology class that babies are actually born to look cute (it is called "Kindchenschema" in German, other mammals also have it). It is a natural reaction to want to care for cute little humans, and it makes sense for little humans to look cute. Sorry I did not understand how you are not creating a strawman. I think you are thinking way too much about all this. It seems important to me to act naturally with children to some extent, and not having to go through a endless mental checklist before reacting to them.

JonnieCache 15y ago
Anorexia is absolutely about beauty ideals. Indeed you are right: anorexia does not look pretty; anorexia is about what the patient sees when they look in the mirror: it is a perceptual disorder in a sense. Regardless of the actual weight of the person in the mirror, the anorexic sees an overweight figure looking back at them. Bulimia is more about control, that's the one that involves purging. It usually coexists with anorexia in the same patient, and goes in cycles. The patient keeps undereating due to the distorted perception of their body size, until they become so underweight that even they cannot deny their problem. Then they begin overeating to compensate for this, and then they are racked by shame due to the overeating and start purging, and the whole awful cycle begins again. Anorexia is not a trivial teenage anxiety disorder, it has a survival rate of around 80%. A horrible business.
- Tichy 15y ago
  Do you have sources for that? Because I really don't think it is correct. I don't know anybody with anorexia, but I know several therapists. Not that I have inquired much about the problem, but I simply have heard different things. In fact the first hit for "anorexia causes" (with DuckDuckGo) seems to confirm my thoughts: http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_treatment.htm http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_t... "Believe it or not, anorexia isn’t really about food and weight—at least not at its core. Eating disorders are much more complicated than that. The food and weight-related issues are symptoms of something deeper: things like depression, loneliness, insecurity, pressure to be perfect, or feeling out of control. Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure." Of course blaming it on beauty ideals conveyed in the media is an easy way out for relations of anorexic persons, who then don't have to confront the real issues.
  - JonnieCache 15y ago
    We are confusing causes with symptoms. Anorexia may well be caused by deeper problems with the person's life, the ones you list in the quote, general sources of depression. However "anorexia" refers to a form of depression that manifests itself in issues with eating and weight. It is not the depression that kills patients, it's the undereating and the vomiting. Therefore it is entirely appropriate to discuss, deal with and treat the eating/food/weight aspects of anorexia patients' lives. When looking to actually cure the patient, therapists will indeed look to deeper issues in the person's psychology/environment. These will likely be specific to the patient, and so it is not really productive to discuss them in general terms accross populations. That can be dangerous, this kind of thinking is what lead to the concept of the "schitzogenic mother." Also, this quote shows a big misunderstanding: "Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure." Nobody claims that weight loss can cure anoreixa. Anorexia is basically the irrational desire for weight loss. Being cured of anorexia essentially involves stopping ones extreme irrational weight loss behaviour, and it is self evident that no amount of weight loss can cure this.

Tichy 15y ago

Sorry I just reread your first post. You seem to be saying that if you tell an anorexic person they are pretty I will be enforcing their anorexia, and if you tell them they are ugly I will also be enforcing their anorexia. You don't mention it, but I suppose if I don't say anything, I silently encourage their behavior, too (being codependent or whatever). So no matter what I do, I am an insensitive prick. See why I don't like your logic? As I said in my other posts, I think there might be deeper issues behind anorexia than what you make them out to be. I really don't think it is about looks, that is just a vehicle. Also, the girl from the article was not anorexic or at least the blogger doesn't mention it.