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S3 and (others) have version history that can be enabled. If you have to take care of availablity and redundancy and delete protection and backups then why pay

S3 and (others) have version history that can be enabled. If you have to take care of availablity and redundancy and delete protection and backups then why pay the premium S3 is charging ? Either you don't trust the cloud and you can run NAS or equivalent (with s3 APIs easily today) much cheaper or trust them to keep your data safe and available. No point in investing in S3 and then doing it again yourself.

ncallaway 5y ago
> No point in investing in S3 and then doing it again yourself. I mean that's just obviously wrong, though. There is a point. > Either you don't trust the cloud and you can run NAS or equivalent (with s3 APIs easily today) much cheaper or trust them to keep your data safe and available. What if you trust the cloud 90%, and you trust yourself 90%, and you think it's likely that the failure cases between the two are likely to be independent? Then it seems like the smart decision would be to do both. Your position is basically arguing that redundant systems are never necessary, because "either you trust A or you trust B, why do both?" If it's absolutely critical that you don't suffer a particular failure, then having redundant systems is very wise.
- manquer 5y ago
  My point is if your redundancy is better than AWS then why pay for them ? If it not they why invest in your own?. You can argue that you protect against different threats than AWS does . So far I have not seen a meaningful argument of threats a on Prem protects differently than the cloud that you need both. Say for example your solution is to put all your data backups on the moon then it makes sense to do both, AWS does not protect against threat to planet wide issues. However if you are both protecting against exact same risks having just provider redundancy only protects against events like AWS goes down for days /months or goes bankrupt. All business decisions have some risk , provider redundancy does not seem a risk to mitigate for the cost it would mean for most businesses I have seen. Even Amazon.com or Google apps host on their own cloud and not use multi cloud after all, their regular businesses are much bigger than their cloud biz , they would still risk those to stick to their cloud/services only.
  - xboxnolifes 5y ago
    > My point is if your redundancy is better than AWS then why pay for them ? If it not they why invest in your own? This is a really confusing question. Redundancy requires more than 1 option. It's not about it being better than AWS, it's that in order to have it you need something besides just AWS. AWS may provide redundant drives, but they don't provide a redundant AWS. AWS can protect against many things, but it cannot protect against AWS being unavailable.
  - miked85 5y ago
    > Even Amazon.com or Google apps host on their own cloud and not use multi cloud after all, their regular businesses are much bigger than their cloud biz This is probably true with Google, but AWS contributes > 50% of Amazon's operating income. [1] [1] https://www.techradar.com/news/aws-is-now-a-bigger-part-of-amazons-overall-success-than-ever https://www.techradar.com/news/aws-is-now-a-bigger-part-of-a...
    - manquer 5y ago
      Interesting, no wonder AWS head became Amazon CEO. Their retail/e-commerce side is less profitable than AWS but the absolute revenue is still massive and the risk of losing that a chunk of that revenue(and income) due to tech issues is still enormous risk for Amazon .
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    If you trust your airbag, why bother with the sealtbelt?
- RA_Fisher 5y ago
  True with two independent servers at 90% each, that’s 0.1^2 = 1% chance both fail— so redundancy can add a lot of reliability.
  - manquer 5y ago
    Only if they are truly independent of each other. You and AWS are using similar chips similar hard disks even with similar failure rates. If you both use same hardware from say batch both can defects and fail at similar times.or you use the same file systems, that say corrupts both your backups. 90% is not a magic number , you need to know AWS supply chains and practices thoroughly and keep yours different enough not to have same risks as AWS does for your system to have independent probability of failures.
    - RA_Fisher 5y ago
      True. One would want to continually decorrelate services or model the dependencies. Redundancy will help even with some dependency, but you raise an important point.
  - JackFr 5y ago
    You assume failures are uncorrelated. Which, depending on what you think you are protecting yourself from, might or might not be true. (Consider a buggy software release which incorrectly deletes a backup. Depending on the bug it’s very possible it will delete in both places.)
    - bee_rider 5y ago
      If one buggy software release can delete both copies, then you don't have actual redundancy from the point of view of that issue.
scurvy 5y ago
Backup on site and store tertiary copies in a cloud. Storing all backups in AWS wouldn't meet a lot of compliance requirements. Even multiple AZs in AWS would not pass muster as there are single points of failure (API, auth, etc).
kalleth 5y ago
In most startups? You're mostly correct. But you still have some risks here, yes, with a super low probability, but a company-killing impact. In some industries - banking, finance, anything regulated, or really (I'd argue) anywhere where losing all of your data is company killing - you will need a disaster recovery strategy in place. The risks requiring non-AWS backups are things like: - A failed payment goes unnoticed and AWS locks us out of your AWS account, which also goes unnoticed and the account and data are deleted - A bad actor gains access to the root account through faxing Amazon a fake notarized letter, finding a leaked AWS key, social engineering one of your DevOps team, and encrypts all of your data while removing your AWS-based backups - An internal bad actor deletes all of your AWS data because they know they're about to be fired ...and so on. There's so many scenarios that aren't technical which can result in a single vendor dependency for your entire business being unwise. A storage array in a separate DC somewhere where your platform can send (and only send! not access or modify) backups of your business critical data ticks off those super low probability but company-killing impact risks. This is why risk matrices have separate probability and impact sections. Miniscule probability but "the company directors go to jail" impact? Better believe I'm spending some time on that.
- manquer 5y ago
  Yes threat models is obvious qualifier, if you have a business that requires backup on the moon if there asteroid collision then by all means got for it.[1] For most companies what AWS.or Azure offers is more than adequate. An internal bad actor with that level of privileged access can delete your local backups or external one can all things you he can do to AWS he can likely do easier to your company storage DC too. Bottom-line it doesn't matter if customers can pay for all this low probability stuff that can only happen on the cloud and not on Prem sure go ahead. Half the things customers pay for they don't need or use anyway. [1] assuming your business model allows you to spend the expense outlay you need for the threat model
  - lambic 5y ago
    We have AWS backups, "offsite" backups on another cloud provider, and air-gapped backups in a disconnected hard drive in a safe. The extra expense outlay for the 2 additional backups is approximately $50/month, so it's not going to break the bank.
jeremyjh 5y ago
There are completely independent risks that you are dealing with here. If you are a small company there is a non-insignificant risk that your cloud account will be closed and it will be impossible to find out why or to fix it in a timely matter. There have been several that were only fixed after being escalated to the front page of Hacker News, and we haven't heard about the ones that didn't get enough upvotes to get our attention and were never fixed. Also, what we saw on Dec 7th was that the complexity of Amazon's infrastructure introduces risks of downtime that simply cannot be fully mitigated by Amazon, or by any other single provider. More redundancy introduces more complexity at both the micro level and macro level. It doesn't really cost that much to at least store replicated data in an independent cloud, particularly a low-cost one like Digital Ocean.
b112 5y ago
Erm. In some orgs, recreating lost data, code, deployment and more is literally hundreds of thousands of hours of work. In a smaller org, the devastation can be just as stark. Loosing hundreds of hours of work can be a death knell. Anyone advocating placing an entire orgs's future on one provider is literally, completely incompetent. It's the equiv of a home user thinking all their baby pics will be safe on google or facebook. It is just plain dumb.
hinkley 5y ago
Whether you realize it or not, you believe in the Scapegoat Effect, and it's going to get you into a shitload of trouble some day. Customers don't care if it's you're fault or not, they only care that your stuff is broken. That safety blanket of having a vendor to blame for the problem might feel like it'll protect your job but the fact is that there are many points in your career where there is one customer we can't afford to lose for financial or political reasons, and if your lack of pessimistic thinking loses us that customer, then you're boned. You might not be fired, but you'll be at the top of the list for a layoff round (and if the loss was financial, that'll happen). In IT, we pay someone else to clean our offices and restock supplies because it's not part of our core business. It's fine to let that go. If I work at a hotel or a restaurant, though, 'we' have our own people that clean the buildings and equipment. Because a hotel is a clean, dry building that people rent in increments of 24 hours. Similarly, a restaurant has to build up a core competency in cleanliness or the health department will shut them down. If we violate that social contract, we take it in the teeth, and then people legislate away our opportunities to cut those corners. For the life of me I can't figure out why IT companies are running to AWS. This is the exact same sort of facilities management problem that physical businesses deal with internally. I have saved myself and my teams from a few architectural blunders by asking the head of IT or Operations what they think of my solution. Sometimes the answer starts with, "nobody would ever deploy a solution that looked like that". Better to get that feedback in private rather than in a post-mortem or via veto in a launch meeting. But I have had less and less access to that sort of domain knowledge over the last decade, between Cloud Services and centralized, faceless IT at some bigger companies. It's a huge loss of wisdom, and I don't know that the consequences are entirely outweighed by the advantages.

ncallaway 5y ago

> No point in investing in S3 and then doing it again yourself. I mean that's just obviously wrong, though. There is a point. > Either you don't trust the cloud and you can run NAS or equivalent (with s3 APIs easily today) much cheaper or trust them to keep your data safe and available. What if you trust the cloud 90%, and you trust yourself 90%, and you think it's likely that the failure cases between the two are likely to be independent? Then it seems like the smart decision would be to do both. Your position is basically arguing that redundant systems are never necessary, because "either you trust A or you trust B, why do both?" If it's absolutely critical that you don't suffer a particular failure, then having redundant systems is very wise.

manquer 5y ago
My point is if your redundancy is better than AWS then why pay for them ? If it not they why invest in your own?. You can argue that you protect against different threats than AWS does . So far I have not seen a meaningful argument of threats a on Prem protects differently than the cloud that you need both. Say for example your solution is to put all your data backups on the moon then it makes sense to do both, AWS does not protect against threat to planet wide issues. However if you are both protecting against exact same risks having just provider redundancy only protects against events like AWS goes down for days /months or goes bankrupt. All business decisions have some risk , provider redundancy does not seem a risk to mitigate for the cost it would mean for most businesses I have seen. Even Amazon.com or Google apps host on their own cloud and not use multi cloud after all, their regular businesses are much bigger than their cloud biz , they would still risk those to stick to their cloud/services only.
- xboxnolifes 5y ago
  > My point is if your redundancy is better than AWS then why pay for them ? If it not they why invest in your own? This is a really confusing question. Redundancy requires more than 1 option. It's not about it being better than AWS, it's that in order to have it you need something besides just AWS. AWS may provide redundant drives, but they don't provide a redundant AWS. AWS can protect against many things, but it cannot protect against AWS being unavailable.
- miked85 5y ago
  > Even Amazon.com or Google apps host on their own cloud and not use multi cloud after all, their regular businesses are much bigger than their cloud biz This is probably true with Google, but AWS contributes > 50% of Amazon's operating income. [1] [1] https://www.techradar.com/news/aws-is-now-a-bigger-part-of-amazons-overall-success-than-ever https://www.techradar.com/news/aws-is-now-a-bigger-part-of-a...
  - manquer 5y ago
    Interesting, no wonder AWS head became Amazon CEO. Their retail/e-commerce side is less profitable than AWS but the absolute revenue is still massive and the risk of losing that a chunk of that revenue(and income) due to tech issues is still enormous risk for Amazon .
- bee_rider 5y ago
  If you trust your airbag, why bother with the sealtbelt?
RA_Fisher 5y ago
True with two independent servers at 90% each, that’s 0.1^2 = 1% chance both fail— so redundancy can add a lot of reliability.
- manquer 5y ago
  Only if they are truly independent of each other. You and AWS are using similar chips similar hard disks even with similar failure rates. If you both use same hardware from say batch both can defects and fail at similar times.or you use the same file systems, that say corrupts both your backups. 90% is not a magic number , you need to know AWS supply chains and practices thoroughly and keep yours different enough not to have same risks as AWS does for your system to have independent probability of failures.
  - RA_Fisher 5y ago
    True. One would want to continually decorrelate services or model the dependencies. Redundancy will help even with some dependency, but you raise an important point.
- JackFr 5y ago
  You assume failures are uncorrelated. Which, depending on what you think you are protecting yourself from, might or might not be true. (Consider a buggy software release which incorrectly deletes a backup. Depending on the bug it’s very possible it will delete in both places.)
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    If one buggy software release can delete both copies, then you don't have actual redundancy from the point of view of that issue.

scurvy 5y ago

Backup on site and store tertiary copies in a cloud. Storing all backups in AWS wouldn't meet a lot of compliance requirements. Even multiple AZs in AWS would not pass muster as there are single points of failure (API, auth, etc).

kalleth 5y ago

In most startups? You're mostly correct. But you still have some risks here, yes, with a super low probability, but a company-killing impact. In some industries - banking, finance, anything regulated, or really (I'd argue) anywhere where losing all of your data is company killing - you will need a disaster recovery strategy in place. The risks requiring non-AWS backups are things like: - A failed payment goes unnoticed and AWS locks us out of your AWS account, which also goes unnoticed and the account and data are deleted - A bad actor gains access to the root account through faxing Amazon a fake notarized letter, finding a leaked AWS key, social engineering one of your DevOps team, and encrypts all of your data while removing your AWS-based backups - An internal bad actor deletes all of your AWS data because they know they're about to be fired ...and so on. There's so many scenarios that aren't technical which can result in a single vendor dependency for your entire business being unwise. A storage array in a separate DC somewhere where your platform can send (and only send! not access or modify) backups of your business critical data ticks off those super low probability but company-killing impact risks. This is why risk matrices have separate probability and impact sections. Miniscule probability but "the company directors go to jail" impact? Better believe I'm spending some time on that.

manquer 5y ago
Yes threat models is obvious qualifier, if you have a business that requires backup on the moon if there asteroid collision then by all means got for it.[1] For most companies what AWS.or Azure offers is more than adequate. An internal bad actor with that level of privileged access can delete your local backups or external one can all things you he can do to AWS he can likely do easier to your company storage DC too. Bottom-line it doesn't matter if customers can pay for all this low probability stuff that can only happen on the cloud and not on Prem sure go ahead. Half the things customers pay for they don't need or use anyway. [1] assuming your business model allows you to spend the expense outlay you need for the threat model
- lambic 5y ago
  We have AWS backups, "offsite" backups on another cloud provider, and air-gapped backups in a disconnected hard drive in a safe. The extra expense outlay for the 2 additional backups is approximately $50/month, so it's not going to break the bank.

jeremyjh 5y ago

There are completely independent risks that you are dealing with here. If you are a small company there is a non-insignificant risk that your cloud account will be closed and it will be impossible to find out why or to fix it in a timely matter. There have been several that were only fixed after being escalated to the front page of Hacker News, and we haven't heard about the ones that didn't get enough upvotes to get our attention and were never fixed. Also, what we saw on Dec 7th was that the complexity of Amazon's infrastructure introduces risks of downtime that simply cannot be fully mitigated by Amazon, or by any other single provider. More redundancy introduces more complexity at both the micro level and macro level. It doesn't really cost that much to at least store replicated data in an independent cloud, particularly a low-cost one like Digital Ocean.

b112 5y ago

Erm. In some orgs, recreating lost data, code, deployment and more is literally hundreds of thousands of hours of work. In a smaller org, the devastation can be just as stark. Loosing hundreds of hours of work can be a death knell. Anyone advocating placing an entire orgs's future on one provider is literally, completely incompetent. It's the equiv of a home user thinking all their baby pics will be safe on google or facebook. It is just plain dumb.

hinkley 5y ago

Whether you realize it or not, you believe in the Scapegoat Effect, and it's going to get you into a shitload of trouble some day. Customers don't care if it's you're fault or not, they only care that your stuff is broken. That safety blanket of having a vendor to blame for the problem might feel like it'll protect your job but the fact is that there are many points in your career where there is one customer we can't afford to lose for financial or political reasons, and if your lack of pessimistic thinking loses us that customer, then you're boned. You might not be fired, but you'll be at the top of the list for a layoff round (and if the loss was financial, that'll happen). In IT, we pay someone else to clean our offices and restock supplies because it's not part of our core business. It's fine to let that go. If I work at a hotel or a restaurant, though, 'we' have our own people that clean the buildings and equipment. Because a hotel is a clean, dry building that people rent in increments of 24 hours. Similarly, a restaurant has to build up a core competency in cleanliness or the health department will shut them down. If we violate that social contract, we take it in the teeth, and then people legislate away our opportunities to cut those corners. For the life of me I can't figure out why IT companies are running to AWS. This is the exact same sort of facilities management problem that physical businesses deal with internally. I have saved myself and my teams from a few architectural blunders by asking the head of IT or Operations what they think of my solution. Sometimes the answer starts with, "nobody would ever deploy a solution that looked like that". Better to get that feedback in private rather than in a post-mortem or via veto in a launch meeting. But I have had less and less access to that sort of domain knowledge over the last decade, between Cloud Services and centralized, faceless IT at some bigger companies. It's a huge loss of wisdom, and I don't know that the consequences are entirely outweighed by the advantages.