8 ms·

As a Pole, it frustrates me to no end as the 90s and 2000s were the time of incredible optimism and opportunity, then the country joined the EU in 2004 you coul

As a Pole, it frustrates me to no end as the 90s and 2000s were the time of incredible optimism and opportunity, then the country joined the EU in 2004 you could see *everything" improving very very quickly, huge level of growth and opportunities for everyone, country slowly becoming more and more progressive too, and then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or its values anymore.

Claude_Shannon 5y ago
I have no hope anymore. It won't get better. If people want 500 zł monthly and are willing to sell themselves and the country for that - let them...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That's nice in theory but when you are personally dragged down right along with them then that it becomes a very practical problem.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    Many Poles already left, many still will. It's a never ending brain drain since 2004.
    - xchaotic 5y ago
      where do you go to? Brexit Britain or MAGA Murica? Running away is not a good, long term solution.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        It's not so much running away as much as it is wanting to create a better life for yourself and your family. There are many more options than the UK or the USA, Polish immigrants can be found all over Europe.
      - Claude_Shannon 5y ago
        most commonly now - Germany, if you're able to - Canada, if you don't have valuable skills - Netherlands. That being said... if you have a good job, like in IT, you're better off remaining in Poland. You just have to grit your teeth.
    - mistrial9 5y ago
      the only Polish citizen I know, went to England for work as a young man, worked hard for giant companies, got remote work and started his family in Poland. I have no updates but I thought he had a very decent house now in Poland, and was doing well with remote C++ work.
  - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
    It has a big impact on the EU as well when an EU country start flouting the EU laws.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
      Apparently not, because the EU doesn't seem to be up for enforcing them.
      - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
        I think they want to, but they seem to doubt the tools they have for enforcement. I suspect some of the COVID funds will be held back. Edit: Actually they have already frozen 35 bn Euro. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/22/brussels-launches-legal-action-over-polish-rulings-against-eu-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/22/brussels-launc...
- trasz 5y ago
  Well, look at it this way: how bad it must have been for those people to prefer the 500zł instead? I'd say that's what the previous government missed completely: that the old state of affairs simply didn't work for many people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bitcharmer 5y ago
    It still doesn't work as all those social programs are unsustainable from fiscal viewpoint. It's all financed by debt and inflation.
    - trasz 5y ago
      Not true. In fact, those programs are only barely more expensive than "podatek liniowy", which got introduced decades ago and which is essentially a subsidy for the wealthy for being wealthy.
      - bitcharmer 5y ago
        Care to explain the reason behind currently skyrocketing inflation and PLN devaluation then?
        trasz 5y ago
        https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/inflation-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/inflation-rate. Also, while it's kind of hard to say for sure how Poland is doing, and while there definitely are some things that the current government is horrible at, it would be quite a stretch to say it's the "500+" program's fault. Especially given that "podatek liniowy" still exists.
        lkrubner 5y ago
        Poland is able to keep its unemployment somewhat down, by keeping the zloty weak relative to the euro, and therefore helping Polish exports. And before anyone says "Poland has a lot of unemployment" compare it to other weak Eastern European countries on the euro. Poland could end inflation if it wanted higher unemployment, but for now it accepts the higher inflation and weaker zloty so as to help exports and so limit how bad unemployment might get.
- tata71 5y ago
  What happens when the whole western world is on that?
jacquesm 5y ago
Agreed it is super frustrating. I still have a ton of ties with Poland and the level of disillusion among my contacts there is absolutely overwhelming. Brexit has caused a lot of Polish people that had set up shop abroad between a rock and a hard place: some of them were planning to move back but those plans are now on hold forever. And the ones remaining in Poland that were trying their hardest to move the country forward are now also thinking of abandoning the country because they feel the current slide down will not be arrested for a long time.
- passerby1 5y ago
  I don't get what connection does the Brexit have to Poland, would you explain?
  - ajuc 5y ago
    There were about a million Poles in UK that migrated in early 00s when UK was the first to open borders to new EU members and when Poland had huge unemployment still.
  - mc32 5y ago
    I think there is a Pole diaspora/immigrant pop. in the UK, so Brexit would affect their ability to move through borders for employment purposes and thus affects plans for settlement, doing business and so on.
  - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
    A lot of Poles moved to the UK to work.
  - jonnycomputer 5y ago
    Poles who moved to Britain because they were all part of the EU and there was economic opportunity are now an entirely different status in Britain. Like an Oklahoman coming to California as an American, and then finding they're not anymore.
    - 5y ago
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
It will take an enormous amount of effort and money to fix everything they brought down. But I believe in Poles - they rebuilt their capital from ruins after WW2, they made an enormous progress after they became a democracy, so no doubt they will also manage to fix everything the populists are destroying right now. But as you say - it's a pity Polish people lost a few years and lots of opportunities.
- skocznymroczny 5y ago
  Destroying is a bit of an overstatement. Unfortunately we live in a political climate, not only in Poland, that whenever left-wing candidates lose an election, it's populism and backsliding on democracy. But if the candidate that was supposed to win, wins, companies are all foreign owned and NGOs control all spheres of life, then it's freedom and democracy.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Except there were no left-wing candidates here. Poland has effectively two-party system, with both parties being somewhat right-wing.
    - p_l 5y ago
      Even worse, majority of politicians in two biggest party come from fracturing of previous right-wing party...
    - orloffm 5y ago
      And another view on that is that they are both left-wing socialists who want to regulate and tax everything and who vote the same on all major issues, from tax increases to immigration. The recent example being the increase of traffic fines.
      - trasz 5y ago
        Ah, a Konfederacja fan! (For context: in Poland people who demonstrate the kind of political illiteracy displayed in the comment above generally vote for Konfederacja party, which can't be easily described in traditional categories due to how illiterate it is.)
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or its values anymore Is there concern this could impact Poland's NATO status in the long run? In the short run, of course not, it's strategically located. But in the long run, as values diverge, isn't there fear it could become untenable for a U.S. president to call for spilling American blood to protect such a country?
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  I think PiS is endangering itself. Exit from EU would be catastrophic strategically. Despite its anti-Russian rhetoric, sometimes I wonder whether the leadership of PiS is actually being paid by Putin to weaken Poland and the EU.
- praptak 5y ago
  Of course it might affect Poland's NATO status. I mean not like the formal membership. Turkey is still in NATO after all. But relying on membership alone is plain stupid. If "spilling blood to protect such a country" becomes a problem, the response will degrade from actual help to some meaningless gestures. "We tried really hard to help them! Too bad our troops did not make it on time!"
- trasz 5y ago
  Values-wise, Poland is still way closer to the West than, say, Turkey. NATO has nothing to do with values, though - what matters is where the US wants its Air Force bases.
- rurban 5y ago
  NATO prefers authoritarian and extreme-right wing over socialist modern democracies. The EU on the other hand not. The EU membership is in danger, not NATO. And if the EU wouldn't hope the next elections would fix that, Poland would have been thrown out already. There are a couple of other authoritarian eastern block countries who are now encouraged by Poland, which will blow up to a full blown crisis if not handled immediately.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
Not a Pole, but my spouse is. Assisted my father-in-law, in a wheelchair, to make it up the stairs to vote for EU membership. So much optimism that day. It makes us so sad to see what has happened. PiS is piss, imo.

Claude_Shannon 5y ago

I have no hope anymore. It won't get better. If people want 500 zł monthly and are willing to sell themselves and the country for that - let them...

jacquesm 5y ago
That's nice in theory but when you are personally dragged down right along with them then that it becomes a very practical problem.
- odiroot 5y ago
  Many Poles already left, many still will. It's a never ending brain drain since 2004.
  - xchaotic 5y ago
    where do you go to? Brexit Britain or MAGA Murica? Running away is not a good, long term solution.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      It's not so much running away as much as it is wanting to create a better life for yourself and your family. There are many more options than the UK or the USA, Polish immigrants can be found all over Europe.
    - Claude_Shannon 5y ago
      most commonly now - Germany, if you're able to - Canada, if you don't have valuable skills - Netherlands. That being said... if you have a good job, like in IT, you're better off remaining in Poland. You just have to grit your teeth.
  - mistrial9 5y ago
    the only Polish citizen I know, went to England for work as a young man, worked hard for giant companies, got remote work and started his family in Poland. I have no updates but I thought he had a very decent house now in Poland, and was doing well with remote C++ work.
- bjelkeman-again 5y ago
  It has a big impact on the EU as well when an EU country start flouting the EU laws.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Apparently not, because the EU doesn't seem to be up for enforcing them.
    - bjelkeman-again 5y ago
      I think they want to, but they seem to doubt the tools they have for enforcement. I suspect some of the COVID funds will be held back. Edit: Actually they have already frozen 35 bn Euro. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/22/brussels-launches-legal-action-over-polish-rulings-against-eu-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/22/brussels-launc...
trasz 5y ago
Well, look at it this way: how bad it must have been for those people to prefer the 500zł instead? I'd say that's what the previous government missed completely: that the old state of affairs simply didn't work for many people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bitcharmer 5y ago
  It still doesn't work as all those social programs are unsustainable from fiscal viewpoint. It's all financed by debt and inflation.
  - trasz 5y ago
    Not true. In fact, those programs are only barely more expensive than "podatek liniowy", which got introduced decades ago and which is essentially a subsidy for the wealthy for being wealthy.
    - bitcharmer 5y ago
      Care to explain the reason behind currently skyrocketing inflation and PLN devaluation then?
      - trasz 5y ago
        https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/inflation-rate https://tradingeconomics.com/european-union/inflation-rate. Also, while it's kind of hard to say for sure how Poland is doing, and while there definitely are some things that the current government is horrible at, it would be quite a stretch to say it's the "500+" program's fault. Especially given that "podatek liniowy" still exists.
      - lkrubner 5y ago
        Poland is able to keep its unemployment somewhat down, by keeping the zloty weak relative to the euro, and therefore helping Polish exports. And before anyone says "Poland has a lot of unemployment" compare it to other weak Eastern European countries on the euro. Poland could end inflation if it wanted higher unemployment, but for now it accepts the higher inflation and weaker zloty so as to help exports and so limit how bad unemployment might get.
tata71 5y ago
What happens when the whole western world is on that?

jacquesm 5y ago

Agreed it is super frustrating. I still have a ton of ties with Poland and the level of disillusion among my contacts there is absolutely overwhelming. Brexit has caused a lot of Polish people that had set up shop abroad between a rock and a hard place: some of them were planning to move back but those plans are now on hold forever. And the ones remaining in Poland that were trying their hardest to move the country forward are now also thinking of abandoning the country because they feel the current slide down will not be arrested for a long time.

passerby1 5y ago
I don't get what connection does the Brexit have to Poland, would you explain?
- ajuc 5y ago
  There were about a million Poles in UK that migrated in early 00s when UK was the first to open borders to new EU members and when Poland had huge unemployment still.
- mc32 5y ago
  I think there is a Pole diaspora/immigrant pop. in the UK, so Brexit would affect their ability to move through borders for employment purposes and thus affects plans for settlement, doing business and so on.
- bjelkeman-again 5y ago
  A lot of Poles moved to the UK to work.
- jonnycomputer 5y ago
  Poles who moved to Britain because they were all part of the EU and there was economic opportunity are now an entirely different status in Britain. Like an Oklahoman coming to California as an American, and then finding they're not anymore.
  - 5y ago

hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago

It will take an enormous amount of effort and money to fix everything they brought down. But I believe in Poles - they rebuilt their capital from ruins after WW2, they made an enormous progress after they became a democracy, so no doubt they will also manage to fix everything the populists are destroying right now. But as you say - it's a pity Polish people lost a few years and lots of opportunities.

skocznymroczny 5y ago
Destroying is a bit of an overstatement. Unfortunately we live in a political climate, not only in Poland, that whenever left-wing candidates lose an election, it's populism and backsliding on democracy. But if the candidate that was supposed to win, wins, companies are all foreign owned and NGOs control all spheres of life, then it's freedom and democracy.
- trasz 5y ago
  Except there were no left-wing candidates here. Poland has effectively two-party system, with both parties being somewhat right-wing.
  - p_l 5y ago
    Even worse, majority of politicians in two biggest party come from fracturing of previous right-wing party...
  - orloffm 5y ago
    And another view on that is that they are both left-wing socialists who want to regulate and tax everything and who vote the same on all major issues, from tax increases to immigration. The recent example being the increase of traffic fines.
    - trasz 5y ago
      Ah, a Konfederacja fan! (For context: in Poland people who demonstrate the kind of political illiteracy displayed in the comment above generally vote for Konfederacja party, which can't be easily described in traditional categories due to how illiterate it is.)

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

> then PiS got elected and everything went to shit, 6 years down and I don't recognize this country or its values anymore Is there concern this could impact Poland's NATO status in the long run? In the short run, of course not, it's strategically located. But in the long run, as values diverge, isn't there fear it could become untenable for a U.S. president to call for spilling American blood to protect such a country?

jonnycomputer 5y ago
I think PiS is endangering itself. Exit from EU would be catastrophic strategically. Despite its anti-Russian rhetoric, sometimes I wonder whether the leadership of PiS is actually being paid by Putin to weaken Poland and the EU.
praptak 5y ago
Of course it might affect Poland's NATO status. I mean not like the formal membership. Turkey is still in NATO after all. But relying on membership alone is plain stupid. If "spilling blood to protect such a country" becomes a problem, the response will degrade from actual help to some meaningless gestures. "We tried really hard to help them! Too bad our troops did not make it on time!"
trasz 5y ago
Values-wise, Poland is still way closer to the West than, say, Turkey. NATO has nothing to do with values, though - what matters is where the US wants its Air Force bases.
rurban 5y ago
NATO prefers authoritarian and extreme-right wing over socialist modern democracies. The EU on the other hand not. The EU membership is in danger, not NATO. And if the EU wouldn't hope the next elections would fix that, Poland would have been thrown out already. There are a couple of other authoritarian eastern block countries who are now encouraged by Poland, which will blow up to a full blown crisis if not handled immediately.

jonnycomputer 5y ago

Not a Pole, but my spouse is. Assisted my father-in-law, in a wheelchair, to make it up the stairs to vote for EU membership. So much optimism that day. It makes us so sad to see what has happened. PiS is piss, imo.