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Let's put it another way - if you teach a girl that her good looks are super super important, and she's bombarded with adverts telling her ways to improve, and

Let's put it another way - if you teach a girl that her good looks are super super important, and she's bombarded with adverts telling her ways to improve, and images of people on TV that are portrayed vastly superior to her physically, then she is being set up to feel that no matter what she does, she's never good enough. Whilst us boys can "hit the gym" or "hit the books" and our manliness and success can exude, a girl has to chase beauty products, botox, and boob jobs in order to progress with what she's been born with. Or perhaps become anorexic to be as thin as the models and celebrities that form the vast majority of what women are told to aspire to. This is an awful, awful system. Men are valued on something that is in many respects healthy - physical fitness, ambition, mental progress. Whereas girls are valued on something superficial and damaging - thinness, "beauty". This is what the "beauty" industry does - capitalise on this desire like a shark and not only provide ways for girls to improve their looks, but actively perpetrate the myth that women need to look younger or slimmer or have 100% perfect skin. The beauty industry is a fucking disease.

erikb 15y ago
I can only agree. The beauty industry makes a sick thing out of the basic idea. And if the main article we comment about here means fighting that, then I totally agree. We shouldn't teach our daughters to follow in the foot steps of models and super stars. That would also be lying about what is good for them. In the same way I think it is lying if we tell them that looks don't matter and she should value herself according to other things more. She will be very surprised if she gets out into the real world and sees that most people actually don't care about her, because she doesn't care about her looks at all. Too little and too much both is wrong, I think. I hope I could show you that my argument is not the opposite of yours.
kamaal 15y ago
C'mmon. I am thin, I can't call myself super good looking either. I am not very extrovert and not too much into sports. But I can't use this as a reason to be bad at other things. Present ability, hygiene , looking good, neat and clean matter to both the genders. But if a person is not very attractive by natural look, that is no reason to not perform well in life by personal choice. That is not a reason, not to work hard, not to try, not to give your full. Blaming things apart from oneself only goes so far. And doesn't help anybody. Just because I sucked at sports, I can't use the same reason to be bad at programming.
- knowtheory 15y ago
  There is is a substantial difference. Society's sense of your worth, and as a result your sense of self-worth is not tied into those physical characteristics. This isn't a matter of how hard someone tries at life, this is a question on what basis society judges individuals by (and i should note, this is an emergent equilibrium. It's nudged this way and that, but now that it's driven by financial interests, it's hard to shift the equilibrium). I have a friend who's 6'7". Invariably the first question he was asked when he met new people was "wow you're tall, do you play basketball?" He hates basketball. But society's perception of what he'd be good at was tied into his height. He can't change it, he didn't ask for it, and he certainly showed no interest or indication that he'd like to discuss basketball. That's an outside force impinging on his sense of identity. Same goes for women and what they think society values. Some women play the game, double down and use it as a zero-sum weapon against other women to get ahead. Some don't have a choice, or the will, and just get trampled (by the first group of women). But again, the difference is that you don't have to play this game. There are other games you can play, and society will accept you for it. Women don't get that choice. This is the game that has to be played, if they're to participate in society.
  - kamaal 15y ago
    I am not saying that looking good doesn't matter, sure it does. But it begins to truly matter only if you want it to. The world is a tough place. Its difficult out there for the mild hearted. But that's the case with all the genders. When I was not allowed cricket for my school team, I didn't take that as male oppression or something that should dumb me down for ever. Although the common perception at that time was, if you played well you are more likely to get a girlfriend at that directly cor related to being smart. Its just that I was meant to do something else. Which I did eventually and did pretty well. Today I have trouble getting a bride for marriage(here in India these things matter a lot). But I know deep down within me, I may not be a alpha male among the pack, not very muscular, smart good looking and physically active. But for the kind of hard work I put in I will be a lot more richer than the alpha males. In fact this happens all the time, The society is sure responsible for these sort of perceptions. But they become the reality only if we want to. Now to all girls who reject me to settle with a alpha male, when you discover a decade later I'm more financially rich. Please don't call that women's oppression. That just making wrong decisions and paying for it later.
Tichy 15y ago
Just by telling somebody they are pretty you are NOT endorsing the beauty industry and boob jobs. How about teaching people how to deal with the media and PR industry properly instead? By the way, there are beauty products targeted at men, too. Also, telling somebody they are pretty does NOT imply that you consider anorexic looks to be pretty. In fact, it might give that person a good feeling about herself which just might counter the urge to become anorexic.
- knowtheory 15y ago
  I think you're missing the point. The question is not whether you can appreciate someone's physical characteristics. The question is whether you should appreciate someone's physical characteristics first, foremost, and most importantly above all of their other characteristics. The fact that there is a general rise in anorexia nervosa amongst all genders, is not to say that men in American society suffer equally with women (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa#Epidemiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa#Epidemiology ). More over, the notion that complimenting someone on their appearance will some how coax them out of a psychiatric disorder is naïve at the very least, and destructively ignorant at worst. Anorexia nervosa is about appearance. If you give an anorexic any indication about their physical appearance you are reinforcing their condition. Complements are taken as an indication that starving themselves (or purging in the case of bulimics) works, and that they must continue the behavior to continue to receive complements. Attempts to inform them that they look unattractive (even if it's due to the fact that they're starving themselves) will be taken as an indication that they have not sufficiently starved themselves into attractiveness. You can not logic a person out of an eating disorder. Psychiatric disorders can not be reasoned with, and attempting to do so really does just court disaster (would you attempt to reason with an alcoholic?). I sincerely urge you to read up on psychiatric disorders and the way that they are managed, it's a really challenging subject, and common wisdom about them is usually incorrect.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    If you want to go there... I don't think psychiatric disorders are being caused by the media or by being told "you are pretty" too often when you are a child. By telling somebody they are pretty I am also not telling them that it's the "first, foremost, and most important above all of their other characteristics". You are creating a straw man here. Of course I don't think telling somebody they are pretty will cure their disorders. But it can make somebody's day nevertheless.
Egregore 15y ago
What looking good means biologically? It's actually how men appreciate the health and fertility of the women - the healthier she is the prettier she will look for most men.
fossuser 15y ago
There are quite a few parallels with the way women are pressured to be pretty and men are pressured to be wildly successful. Both are likely damaging if allowed to increase uncontrolled and can lead to a variety of different mental health related issues. Just something to be aware of.

erikb 15y ago

I can only agree. The beauty industry makes a sick thing out of the basic idea. And if the main article we comment about here means fighting that, then I totally agree. We shouldn't teach our daughters to follow in the foot steps of models and super stars. That would also be lying about what is good for them. In the same way I think it is lying if we tell them that looks don't matter and she should value herself according to other things more. She will be very surprised if she gets out into the real world and sees that most people actually don't care about her, because she doesn't care about her looks at all. Too little and too much both is wrong, I think. I hope I could show you that my argument is not the opposite of yours.

kamaal 15y ago

C'mmon. I am thin, I can't call myself super good looking either. I am not very extrovert and not too much into sports. But I can't use this as a reason to be bad at other things. Present ability, hygiene , looking good, neat and clean matter to both the genders. But if a person is not very attractive by natural look, that is no reason to not perform well in life by personal choice. That is not a reason, not to work hard, not to try, not to give your full. Blaming things apart from oneself only goes so far. And doesn't help anybody. Just because I sucked at sports, I can't use the same reason to be bad at programming.

knowtheory 15y ago
There is is a substantial difference. Society's sense of your worth, and as a result your sense of self-worth is not tied into those physical characteristics. This isn't a matter of how hard someone tries at life, this is a question on what basis society judges individuals by (and i should note, this is an emergent equilibrium. It's nudged this way and that, but now that it's driven by financial interests, it's hard to shift the equilibrium). I have a friend who's 6'7". Invariably the first question he was asked when he met new people was "wow you're tall, do you play basketball?" He hates basketball. But society's perception of what he'd be good at was tied into his height. He can't change it, he didn't ask for it, and he certainly showed no interest or indication that he'd like to discuss basketball. That's an outside force impinging on his sense of identity. Same goes for women and what they think society values. Some women play the game, double down and use it as a zero-sum weapon against other women to get ahead. Some don't have a choice, or the will, and just get trampled (by the first group of women). But again, the difference is that you don't have to play this game. There are other games you can play, and society will accept you for it. Women don't get that choice. This is the game that has to be played, if they're to participate in society.
- kamaal 15y ago
  I am not saying that looking good doesn't matter, sure it does. But it begins to truly matter only if you want it to. The world is a tough place. Its difficult out there for the mild hearted. But that's the case with all the genders. When I was not allowed cricket for my school team, I didn't take that as male oppression or something that should dumb me down for ever. Although the common perception at that time was, if you played well you are more likely to get a girlfriend at that directly cor related to being smart. Its just that I was meant to do something else. Which I did eventually and did pretty well. Today I have trouble getting a bride for marriage(here in India these things matter a lot). But I know deep down within me, I may not be a alpha male among the pack, not very muscular, smart good looking and physically active. But for the kind of hard work I put in I will be a lot more richer than the alpha males. In fact this happens all the time, The society is sure responsible for these sort of perceptions. But they become the reality only if we want to. Now to all girls who reject me to settle with a alpha male, when you discover a decade later I'm more financially rich. Please don't call that women's oppression. That just making wrong decisions and paying for it later.

Tichy 15y ago

Just by telling somebody they are pretty you are NOT endorsing the beauty industry and boob jobs. How about teaching people how to deal with the media and PR industry properly instead? By the way, there are beauty products targeted at men, too. Also, telling somebody they are pretty does NOT imply that you consider anorexic looks to be pretty. In fact, it might give that person a good feeling about herself which just might counter the urge to become anorexic.

knowtheory 15y ago
I think you're missing the point. The question is not whether you can appreciate someone's physical characteristics. The question is whether you should appreciate someone's physical characteristics first, foremost, and most importantly above all of their other characteristics. The fact that there is a general rise in anorexia nervosa amongst all genders, is not to say that men in American society suffer equally with women (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa#Epidemiology http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anorexia_nervosa#Epidemiology ). More over, the notion that complimenting someone on their appearance will some how coax them out of a psychiatric disorder is naïve at the very least, and destructively ignorant at worst. Anorexia nervosa is about appearance. If you give an anorexic any indication about their physical appearance you are reinforcing their condition. Complements are taken as an indication that starving themselves (or purging in the case of bulimics) works, and that they must continue the behavior to continue to receive complements. Attempts to inform them that they look unattractive (even if it's due to the fact that they're starving themselves) will be taken as an indication that they have not sufficiently starved themselves into attractiveness. You can not logic a person out of an eating disorder. Psychiatric disorders can not be reasoned with, and attempting to do so really does just court disaster (would you attempt to reason with an alcoholic?). I sincerely urge you to read up on psychiatric disorders and the way that they are managed, it's a really challenging subject, and common wisdom about them is usually incorrect.
- Tichy 15y ago
  If you want to go there... I don't think psychiatric disorders are being caused by the media or by being told "you are pretty" too often when you are a child. By telling somebody they are pretty I am also not telling them that it's the "first, foremost, and most important above all of their other characteristics". You are creating a straw man here. Of course I don't think telling somebody they are pretty will cure their disorders. But it can make somebody's day nevertheless.

Egregore 15y ago

What looking good means biologically? It's actually how men appreciate the health and fertility of the women - the healthier she is the prettier she will look for most men.

fossuser 15y ago

There are quite a few parallels with the way women are pressured to be pretty and men are pressured to be wildly successful. Both are likely damaging if allowed to increase uncontrolled and can lead to a variety of different mental health related issues. Just something to be aware of.