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In the UK in the 80s and 90s it was unfashionable to teach formal English grammar in schools. A whole generation grew up without knowing their gerund from their

In the UK in the 80s and 90s it was unfashionable to teach formal English grammar in schools. A whole generation grew up without knowing their gerund from their past participle. (Even as I write this, I know that if put on the spot to explain those words, I’d need to check on Wikipedia). As a native (post-?)modern British English speaker I have observed that “Global English” is a truer version of the language I speak. It intimidates me a bit.

drcongo 5y ago
I had to look up gerund, which very much proves you correct.
KptMarchewa 5y ago
Isn't that rather normal that foreigners have to learn grammar more explicitly? Outside of teachers and people who studied Polish, nobody remembers what "przysłówek" is.
- james_in_the_uk 5y ago
  Good question - I'd assumed that most countries' educational systems teach the formal grammar of their native language(s)?
  - goblin89 5y ago
    The challenge is that the formal understanding of a language constantly evolves and there isn’t always even a consensus in the field itself, so perhaps UK school system has/had a point here. Unless I’m going into linguistics or some adjacent field, doubtful I’ll need it—and if I do, I might be better off learning it later when I can appreciate the nuance (rather than as a small child, liable to treat as ground truth the whatever formal model that happened to be popular at the time) and from a linguist (rather than elementary school teacher).
    - james_in_the_uk 5y ago
      The same could be said about most of what is taught in secondary education. At least an understanding of principles of grammar would help when learning foreign languages. It is also a transferable skill; a number of parallels to coding for example.
      - goblin89 5y ago
        I disagree that it’d help much, maybe even the opposite. Knowing how to use the language effectively is different from knowing [some mainstream theory of] how it works and various taxonomies of its parts. Similar deal with music: you don’t need to know theory or notation to play well, and knowing theory doesn’t really mean you can play. Some say, similar deal with math: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... IMO the existing ways education works in most countries is a can of worms in general.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    At least in Poland they do at the elementary school level - but, at the high school, Polish lessons focus 95% on the literature.
prewett 5y ago
Is this not understanding things like gerunds why we now have things like "ad spend", when "ad spending" is the pre-existing way of nounifying the verb?

drcongo 5y ago

I had to look up gerund, which very much proves you correct.

KptMarchewa 5y ago

Isn't that rather normal that foreigners have to learn grammar more explicitly? Outside of teachers and people who studied Polish, nobody remembers what "przysłówek" is.

james_in_the_uk 5y ago
Good question - I'd assumed that most countries' educational systems teach the formal grammar of their native language(s)?
- goblin89 5y ago
  The challenge is that the formal understanding of a language constantly evolves and there isn’t always even a consensus in the field itself, so perhaps UK school system has/had a point here. Unless I’m going into linguistics or some adjacent field, doubtful I’ll need it—and if I do, I might be better off learning it later when I can appreciate the nuance (rather than as a small child, liable to treat as ground truth the whatever formal model that happened to be popular at the time) and from a linguist (rather than elementary school teacher).
  - james_in_the_uk 5y ago
    The same could be said about most of what is taught in secondary education. At least an understanding of principles of grammar would help when learning foreign languages. It is also a transferable skill; a number of parallels to coding for example.
    - goblin89 5y ago
      I disagree that it’d help much, maybe even the opposite. Knowing how to use the language effectively is different from knowing [some mainstream theory of] how it works and various taxonomies of its parts. Similar deal with music: you don’t need to know theory or notation to play well, and knowing theory doesn’t really mean you can play. Some say, similar deal with math: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... IMO the existing ways education works in most countries is a can of worms in general.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  At least in Poland they do at the elementary school level - but, at the high school, Polish lessons focus 95% on the literature.

prewett 5y ago

Is this not understanding things like gerunds why we now have things like "ad spend", when "ad spending" is the pre-existing way of nounifying the verb?