5 ms·

It’s probably not obvious to the English guy that what is being spoken is not UK (or US) English, but is instead a "Global English" that is (mostly) a subset of

by pja 5y ago

It’s probably not obvious to the English guy that what is being spoken is not UK (or US) English, but is instead a "Global English" that is (mostly) a subset of the language they already speak. It’s very easy for a native English speaker to unknowingly step outside the boundary of what constitutes “Global English” and use constructs & vocabulary that are not taught to Global English speakers.

james_in_the_uk 5y ago
In the UK in the 80s and 90s it was unfashionable to teach formal English grammar in schools. A whole generation grew up without knowing their gerund from their past participle. (Even as I write this, I know that if put on the spot to explain those words, I’d need to check on Wikipedia). As a native (post-?)modern British English speaker I have observed that “Global English” is a truer version of the language I speak. It intimidates me a bit.
- drcongo 5y ago
  I had to look up gerund, which very much proves you correct.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Isn't that rather normal that foreigners have to learn grammar more explicitly? Outside of teachers and people who studied Polish, nobody remembers what "przysłówek" is.
  - james_in_the_uk 5y ago
    Good question - I'd assumed that most countries' educational systems teach the formal grammar of their native language(s)?
    - goblin89 5y ago
      The challenge is that the formal understanding of a language constantly evolves and there isn’t always even a consensus in the field itself, so perhaps UK school system has/had a point here. Unless I’m going into linguistics or some adjacent field, doubtful I’ll need it—and if I do, I might be better off learning it later when I can appreciate the nuance (rather than as a small child, liable to treat as ground truth the whatever formal model that happened to be popular at the time) and from a linguist (rather than elementary school teacher).
      - james_in_the_uk 5y ago
        The same could be said about most of what is taught in secondary education. At least an understanding of principles of grammar would help when learning foreign languages. It is also a transferable skill; a number of parallels to coding for example.
        goblin89 5y ago
        I disagree that it’d help much, maybe even the opposite. Knowing how to use the language effectively is different from knowing [some mainstream theory of] how it works and various taxonomies of its parts. Similar deal with music: you don’t need to know theory or notation to play well, and knowing theory doesn’t really mean you can play. Some say, similar deal with math: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... IMO the existing ways education works in most countries is a can of worms in general.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      At least in Poland they do at the elementary school level - but, at the high school, Polish lessons focus 95% on the literature.
- prewett 5y ago
  Is this not understanding things like gerunds why we now have things like "ad spend", when "ad spending" is the pre-existing way of nounifying the verb?
The_Colonel 5y ago
I don't think it's the constructs & vocabulary which causes the most problems. It's mostly the dialect (pronunciation), fast speaking and unclearly articulated or swallowed sounds. (nothing specific about English here, most of us speak like that in our native languages)
- huijzer 5y ago
  > It's mostly the dialect (pronunciation), fast speaking and unclearly articulated or swallowed sounds. I agree. I was once in a car with a Brit and Canadian and had a lot of trouble to understand them as a non-native English speaker. They could understand each other perfectly well. So, it must be not the specifics of the British or Canadian accent, but more about the fast speaking like you say.
  - DnDGrognard 5y ago
    For fast speaking some Northern Ireland Accents can get hard to understand even for native speakers.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      Try Glaswegian. I'm from the south of England and on occasion hitch-hiked in Scotland. Got a lift from Aberdeen where they speak perfectly understandable English to Glasgow with a Glaswegian building contractor. I don't think I understood more than half of what he said along the way.
      - bsder 5y ago
        > Try Glaswegian. I'll put the Western Pennsylvania/Appalachia accent up against Glaswegian. The Pittsburgh Penguins faced with Pittsburgh-ese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07W9kCK6Q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07W9kCK6Q4 These are comedians making fun of the accent, but they don't do it justice. The accent itself can be near unintelligible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJnIxrtB4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJnIxrtB4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_u122kFO2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_u122kFO2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfNI9DppP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfNI9DppP4 We once had an employee from Westinghouse from the Netherlands over at our house for Thanksgiving. The poor man could understand everybody in the family except for my grandfather. He finally asked us what he was doing wrong. We all laughed and simply pointed out that the problem was my grandfather's accent, not his English and that a significant portion of America wouldn't be able to understand my grandfather, either.
itronitron 5y ago
I once had a native German speaker tell me they had trouble understanding me because I was speaking a 'dialect of English'. It would be very useful to know how English is taught as a foreign language. I assume there are certain methods of constructing phrases that are more natural for certain languages.
- bradknowles 5y ago
  Whatever language is spoken, it’s always a dialect of some parent language. Even preferential versions of the language, like “the Kings English”, a.k.a., Received Pronunciation, is still just another dialect that happens to be preferred. You could just as easily have asked him what dialect of German that he spoke. This happens in languages that do have an official version, too — like French. There’s an official dialect that is defined by L’Academie Française, and there’s everything else. But they’re all still dialects.
tim333 5y ago
As an English guy who travels I find myself modifying the complexity of my language depending on the audience. "Where station?" if the locals aren't very up on English and so on. It's quite easy to gauge it a bit wrong though. I also sometimes find myself modifying the accent a bit to more like US/Australian style which is often better understood than my natural accent (UK home counties).

by pja 5y ago

james_in_the_uk 5y ago

In the UK in the 80s and 90s it was unfashionable to teach formal English grammar in schools. A whole generation grew up without knowing their gerund from their past participle. (Even as I write this, I know that if put on the spot to explain those words, I’d need to check on Wikipedia). As a native (post-?)modern British English speaker I have observed that “Global English” is a truer version of the language I speak. It intimidates me a bit.

drcongo 5y ago
I had to look up gerund, which very much proves you correct.
KptMarchewa 5y ago
Isn't that rather normal that foreigners have to learn grammar more explicitly? Outside of teachers and people who studied Polish, nobody remembers what "przysłówek" is.
- james_in_the_uk 5y ago
  Good question - I'd assumed that most countries' educational systems teach the formal grammar of their native language(s)?
  - goblin89 5y ago
    The challenge is that the formal understanding of a language constantly evolves and there isn’t always even a consensus in the field itself, so perhaps UK school system has/had a point here. Unless I’m going into linguistics or some adjacent field, doubtful I’ll need it—and if I do, I might be better off learning it later when I can appreciate the nuance (rather than as a small child, liable to treat as ground truth the whatever formal model that happened to be popular at the time) and from a linguist (rather than elementary school teacher).
    - james_in_the_uk 5y ago
      The same could be said about most of what is taught in secondary education. At least an understanding of principles of grammar would help when learning foreign languages. It is also a transferable skill; a number of parallels to coding for example.
      - goblin89 5y ago
        I disagree that it’d help much, maybe even the opposite. Knowing how to use the language effectively is different from knowing [some mainstream theory of] how it works and various taxonomies of its parts. Similar deal with music: you don’t need to know theory or notation to play well, and knowing theory doesn’t really mean you can play. Some say, similar deal with math: https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.... IMO the existing ways education works in most countries is a can of worms in general.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    At least in Poland they do at the elementary school level - but, at the high school, Polish lessons focus 95% on the literature.
prewett 5y ago
Is this not understanding things like gerunds why we now have things like "ad spend", when "ad spending" is the pre-existing way of nounifying the verb?

The_Colonel 5y ago

I don't think it's the constructs & vocabulary which causes the most problems. It's mostly the dialect (pronunciation), fast speaking and unclearly articulated or swallowed sounds. (nothing specific about English here, most of us speak like that in our native languages)

huijzer 5y ago
> It's mostly the dialect (pronunciation), fast speaking and unclearly articulated or swallowed sounds. I agree. I was once in a car with a Brit and Canadian and had a lot of trouble to understand them as a non-native English speaker. They could understand each other perfectly well. So, it must be not the specifics of the British or Canadian accent, but more about the fast speaking like you say.
- DnDGrognard 5y ago
  For fast speaking some Northern Ireland Accents can get hard to understand even for native speakers.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    Try Glaswegian. I'm from the south of England and on occasion hitch-hiked in Scotland. Got a lift from Aberdeen where they speak perfectly understandable English to Glasgow with a Glaswegian building contractor. I don't think I understood more than half of what he said along the way.
    - bsder 5y ago
      > Try Glaswegian. I'll put the Western Pennsylvania/Appalachia accent up against Glaswegian. The Pittsburgh Penguins faced with Pittsburgh-ese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07W9kCK6Q4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j07W9kCK6Q4 These are comedians making fun of the accent, but they don't do it justice. The accent itself can be near unintelligible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJnIxrtB4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrJnIxrtB4w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_u122kFO2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_u122kFO2s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfNI9DppP4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfNI9DppP4 We once had an employee from Westinghouse from the Netherlands over at our house for Thanksgiving. The poor man could understand everybody in the family except for my grandfather. He finally asked us what he was doing wrong. We all laughed and simply pointed out that the problem was my grandfather's accent, not his English and that a significant portion of America wouldn't be able to understand my grandfather, either.

itronitron 5y ago

I once had a native German speaker tell me they had trouble understanding me because I was speaking a 'dialect of English'. It would be very useful to know how English is taught as a foreign language. I assume there are certain methods of constructing phrases that are more natural for certain languages.

bradknowles 5y ago
Whatever language is spoken, it’s always a dialect of some parent language. Even preferential versions of the language, like “the Kings English”, a.k.a., Received Pronunciation, is still just another dialect that happens to be preferred. You could just as easily have asked him what dialect of German that he spoke. This happens in languages that do have an official version, too — like French. There’s an official dialect that is defined by L’Academie Française, and there’s everything else. But they’re all still dialects.

tim333 5y ago

As an English guy who travels I find myself modifying the complexity of my language depending on the audience. "Where station?" if the locals aren't very up on English and so on. It's quite easy to gauge it a bit wrong though. I also sometimes find myself modifying the accent a bit to more like US/Australian style which is often better understood than my natural accent (UK home counties).