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I’m perpetually amazed how well Finland is ran. It’s just a country with its shit frozen together. It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a simil

I’m perpetually amazed how well Finland is ran. It’s just a country with its shit frozen together. It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way.

burntoutfire 5y ago
At least four factors differentiate the two: 1. Finland had only one scary and ravenous empire near its border. Poland had two: Russia and Germany/Prussia, or even three, if you count the Austro-Hungarians. 2. Finland is much easier to defend. 3. Finland was a free, market-based country since WWII, whereas Poland had to implement the insane communist policies. So, essentially Finland had a 45-year head start over Poland in building free society and economy. 4. Finland is much less populous. It's much easier to bring wealth via industrialization to a country of 5 millions than to country of 38 millions.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire, but only one year under communist rule. Poland spent 50 years under the communists. Two generations of brain washing and negative selection.
  - fsloth 5y ago
    "Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire" Yes - and no. Legally Finland was a Grand Duchy, under the direct ownership of the Czar (who was the duke of Finland) - hence Finland was not actually part of the Russian state, even though it had the same head of state, but had parallel autonomous state functions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland At the end of 19th century Russian state started to abhor this autonomy, but actual dissolution of the independent state did not have time to take place before the Russian revolution. As czar died with no obvious inheritors, Finland guessed it was now independent and the Soviet state acknowledged it as such. So Finland became independent from a luck of legalese basically, and the fact that Soviet state had other problems to deal with than a small parcel of land. The blood price for independence was paid later in civil war and in 2nd world war.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Wasn't Finland heavily influenced by USSR post-WWII? Hence the term "Finlandisation".
nickff 5y ago
>"It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way." Poland seems to be doing much better than many of the other countries which suffered behind the iron curtain. The comparable countries would seem to be the other former members of the Warsaw Pact: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, and Romania.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Economically, yes, possibly. I'm rather concerned about the societal growth. Poland is, if anything, growing more intolerant, partisan, narrow-minded, and at times just outright stupid. For example, the current, still fairly popular government, is alienating literally all allies around, for no apparent reason. Pissing off Americans over a forced sale of a US-owned TV channel, pissing off the EU for a host of petty and ultimately futile little sorties for years now, pissing off Czechs over an, ultimately, minor border conflict to do with a power plant, perpetual beef with Russia. Out of all our neighbours, we're not in conflict only with the Baltic Sea right now, but it's still early in the day. This has all in fact intensified over the last few months, which see hybrid aggression from Belarus and a Russian army ready to strike at Ukraine, Poland's immediate neighbour. So not a good time to alienate allies and friends. And worst of all, this seems to be popular. Screw these meddling foreigners. Education is being ripped to shreds for ideological battles. School history is being replaced with "History and Present", where the "Present" is literally recounting how amazing the current government is. Public funds are being raided for political points. Meanwhile, Finland seems calm and collected. For its 2018 100th anniversary of independence, they built a huge library, and IIRC sent every child a book. Poland founded an enormous museum to its own awesomeness, somewhere in the middle of nowhere (so it can be grand enough), and hasn't finished it still in December 2021.

burntoutfire 5y ago

At least four factors differentiate the two: 1. Finland had only one scary and ravenous empire near its border. Poland had two: Russia and Germany/Prussia, or even three, if you count the Austro-Hungarians. 2. Finland is much easier to defend. 3. Finland was a free, market-based country since WWII, whereas Poland had to implement the insane communist policies. So, essentially Finland had a 45-year head start over Poland in building free society and economy. 4. Finland is much less populous. It's much easier to bring wealth via industrialization to a country of 5 millions than to country of 38 millions.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire, but only one year under communist rule. Poland spent 50 years under the communists. Two generations of brain washing and negative selection.
- fsloth 5y ago
  "Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire" Yes - and no. Legally Finland was a Grand Duchy, under the direct ownership of the Czar (who was the duke of Finland) - hence Finland was not actually part of the Russian state, even though it had the same head of state, but had parallel autonomous state functions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland At the end of 19th century Russian state started to abhor this autonomy, but actual dissolution of the independent state did not have time to take place before the Russian revolution. As czar died with no obvious inheritors, Finland guessed it was now independent and the Soviet state acknowledged it as such. So Finland became independent from a luck of legalese basically, and the fact that Soviet state had other problems to deal with than a small parcel of land. The blood price for independence was paid later in civil war and in 2nd world war.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Wasn't Finland heavily influenced by USSR post-WWII? Hence the term "Finlandisation".

nickff 5y ago

>"It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way." Poland seems to be doing much better than many of the other countries which suffered behind the iron curtain. The comparable countries would seem to be the other former members of the Warsaw Pact: Albania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, Hungary, and Romania.

rich_sasha 5y ago
Economically, yes, possibly. I'm rather concerned about the societal growth. Poland is, if anything, growing more intolerant, partisan, narrow-minded, and at times just outright stupid. For example, the current, still fairly popular government, is alienating literally all allies around, for no apparent reason. Pissing off Americans over a forced sale of a US-owned TV channel, pissing off the EU for a host of petty and ultimately futile little sorties for years now, pissing off Czechs over an, ultimately, minor border conflict to do with a power plant, perpetual beef with Russia. Out of all our neighbours, we're not in conflict only with the Baltic Sea right now, but it's still early in the day. This has all in fact intensified over the last few months, which see hybrid aggression from Belarus and a Russian army ready to strike at Ukraine, Poland's immediate neighbour. So not a good time to alienate allies and friends. And worst of all, this seems to be popular. Screw these meddling foreigners. Education is being ripped to shreds for ideological battles. School history is being replaced with "History and Present", where the "Present" is literally recounting how amazing the current government is. Public funds are being raided for political points. Meanwhile, Finland seems calm and collected. For its 2018 100th anniversary of independence, they built a huge library, and IIRC sent every child a book. Poland founded an enormous museum to its own awesomeness, somewhere in the middle of nowhere (so it can be grand enough), and hasn't finished it still in December 2021.