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Developer time is not infinite, so a specific ecosystem optimizing for it doesn't come to me as weird. You might begrudge the resources used at scale, but if t

Developer time is not infinite, so a specific ecosystem optimizing for it doesn't come to me as weird. You might begrudge the resources used at scale, but if these programs weren't built in the first place it would be net negative. I also don't see Slack coded in GTK for instance, if it wasn't electron it would have been some Java framework, and I'm not sure it would have been better. Comparing VSCode with Eclipse (which was optimized compared to other frameworks....), I'm pretty happy with VSCode and think we came a long way.

avl999 5y ago
Even a Java based gui written using the Swing toolkit (which I believe is considered ancient tech that most have moved on from although I haven't built a gui in java in ages so don't take my word for it) would be an improvement on these electron apps just because it will prevent the cancer that is Javascript, node, npm and the entire JS ecosystem from invading the desktop. We deal with JS/Node on the frontend because we have no choice, that tech invading the server and the desktop is just sad to watch.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  I found that we have the choice and successfully migrated an enormous bloatware of thousands of binding setinterval functions (Angular 1) full of node dependencies, npm breakages, impossible to understand grunt builds into a simple, 10 files pure javascript + some jquery approximately well compatmentalised set of bespoke business services. The only critic I ever faced with this was that it was not classical nor "the proper way", but the fact it loaded instantly and worked exactly the same way albeit infinitely faster managed to convince we may not need all that jazz. You always have a choice but you'll face more resistance and worry not to go with everyone else towards suicide by a thousand dependencies.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Even a Java based gui written using the Swing toolkit (which I believe is considered ancient tech that most have moved on from although I haven't built a gui in java in ages so don't take my word for it) would be an improvement on these electron apps just because it will prevent the cancer that is Javascript, node, npm and the entire JS ecosystem from invading the desktop. I remember a very similar complaint being made about Eclipse, Java, and Swing as you make about Electron, JS, and Node as a cancer on the desktop.
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  From my Java days, backend work looked like creating plugins to auto-generate XML, which would be parsed by the build system to auto-generate classes...on a philosophy level, I can't remember people preaching simplicity and pragmatism outside of the Eclipse people (who had to deal with real hard complexity issues day in and day out...) An alternative history where Java would have been huge on the desktop doesn't look to me like we'd have a heaven of well-though lightweight apps TBH. I personnally think npm is something inevitable, and am not sure Maven for instance is fundamentally better in the grand scheme of things (I'd argue as a dev it's way more of a PITA without any specific upside, but it might be my own incompetence).
pjmlp 5y ago
The same VSCode that happens to run Eclipse headless for its Java support?
xg15 5y ago
> You might begrudge the resources used at scale, but if these programs weren't built in the first place it would be net negative. I don't think so. Different programs might have been built in a more efficient framework instead.
bayindirh 5y ago
> it would have been some Java framework, and I'm not sure it would have been better. Java Swing is much more responsive and light when compared to Electron. Java is no longer heavy since the first Core series processors of Intel, and it's visibly optimized to be lighter and faster every release. > Comparing VSCode with Eclipse (which was optimized compared to other frameworks....), I'm pretty happy with VSCode and think we came a long way. Eclipse of today can run circles around both the Eclipse of yesteryear and VScode in terms of performance, resource utilization and capabilities. I'm using Eclipse for 20 years (and still using it), and just because it's old enough to get a driver's license, it doesn't mean it's obsolete or featureless.
- bullen 5y ago
  If you want to try an example of a truly scalable and snappy GUI experience with lightweight Java check my node/tree editor out: http://move.rupy.se/file/logic.html http://move.rupy.se/file/logic.html

avl999 5y ago

Even a Java based gui written using the Swing toolkit (which I believe is considered ancient tech that most have moved on from although I haven't built a gui in java in ages so don't take my word for it) would be an improvement on these electron apps just because it will prevent the cancer that is Javascript, node, npm and the entire JS ecosystem from invading the desktop. We deal with JS/Node on the frontend because we have no choice, that tech invading the server and the desktop is just sad to watch.

xwolfi 5y ago
I found that we have the choice and successfully migrated an enormous bloatware of thousands of binding setinterval functions (Angular 1) full of node dependencies, npm breakages, impossible to understand grunt builds into a simple, 10 files pure javascript + some jquery approximately well compatmentalised set of bespoke business services. The only critic I ever faced with this was that it was not classical nor "the proper way", but the fact it loaded instantly and worked exactly the same way albeit infinitely faster managed to convince we may not need all that jazz. You always have a choice but you'll face more resistance and worry not to go with everyone else towards suicide by a thousand dependencies.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Even a Java based gui written using the Swing toolkit (which I believe is considered ancient tech that most have moved on from although I haven't built a gui in java in ages so don't take my word for it) would be an improvement on these electron apps just because it will prevent the cancer that is Javascript, node, npm and the entire JS ecosystem from invading the desktop. I remember a very similar complaint being made about Eclipse, Java, and Swing as you make about Electron, JS, and Node as a cancer on the desktop.
makeitdouble 5y ago
From my Java days, backend work looked like creating plugins to auto-generate XML, which would be parsed by the build system to auto-generate classes...on a philosophy level, I can't remember people preaching simplicity and pragmatism outside of the Eclipse people (who had to deal with real hard complexity issues day in and day out...) An alternative history where Java would have been huge on the desktop doesn't look to me like we'd have a heaven of well-though lightweight apps TBH. I personnally think npm is something inevitable, and am not sure Maven for instance is fundamentally better in the grand scheme of things (I'd argue as a dev it's way more of a PITA without any specific upside, but it might be my own incompetence).

pjmlp 5y ago

The same VSCode that happens to run Eclipse headless for its Java support?

xg15 5y ago

> You might begrudge the resources used at scale, but if these programs weren't built in the first place it would be net negative. I don't think so. Different programs might have been built in a more efficient framework instead.

bayindirh 5y ago

> it would have been some Java framework, and I'm not sure it would have been better. Java Swing is much more responsive and light when compared to Electron. Java is no longer heavy since the first Core series processors of Intel, and it's visibly optimized to be lighter and faster every release. > Comparing VSCode with Eclipse (which was optimized compared to other frameworks....), I'm pretty happy with VSCode and think we came a long way. Eclipse of today can run circles around both the Eclipse of yesteryear and VScode in terms of performance, resource utilization and capabilities. I'm using Eclipse for 20 years (and still using it), and just because it's old enough to get a driver's license, it doesn't mean it's obsolete or featureless.

bullen 5y ago
If you want to try an example of a truly scalable and snappy GUI experience with lightweight Java check my node/tree editor out: http://move.rupy.se/file/logic.html http://move.rupy.se/file/logic.html