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Dune is the most confusing book series I have ever read. My introduction to Dune was via Dune II and eventually Dune 1 video games, and I thought the setting wa

Dune is the most confusing book series I have ever read. My introduction to Dune was via Dune II and eventually Dune 1 video games, and I thought the setting was amazing and very well thought out. Then I read the first book and was thoroughly confused: Paul is a Superman, but supermen are bad? Except nowhere in the book does it imply that. It reads like a teenager’a superhero fantasy novel. And the world building that is lauded for being so sophisticated? It just feels off. For one, there are tens of thousands of habitable planets but all the action takes place on only four. Second, there is the Landsraad but we focus on just three factions. Third, the entire empire relies on spice, yet spice comes from a single planet and they never bothered to figure out why or how it’s made? Moreover instead of the emperor directly controlling spice production (the most valuable substance in the galaxy and the source of ultimate control) he outsources the job to a noble house that is sure to betray him sooner or later. Paul is of course considered a genius for figuring this out, but like how could you not see this coming from page 1? And then there are the sequels. The second book is confusing as all hell because suddenly there is the great Jihad except we don’t really know why it’s happening, to whom, and who is winning. And Paul is now an emo kid who is both too wise and not wise enough. He can’t stop the Jihad so he does some stuff that he foresaw but makes no sense. The Children of Dune at least brings things back out of the abstract “you are too dumb to understand just how vast the world is so I won’t bother describing it to you”. But it’s a story with a middle and not really a beginning or an end. I didn’t manage to get further than this book. I really wanted to like Dune. But I have no idea what I am missing. Did I have to read it as a 15 year old to really get into it? Is there some cultural thing I’m missing? Is it just overhyped?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
int_19h 5y ago
The narrow locality is intentional. Remember, this is "feudalism in space", with many things - like shields - deliberately contrived to make it somewhat plausible. A very important part of the resulting arrangement of society is how static it is, not just in abstract matters like social structure, but also very literally in movement of people. The vast majority in this universe never leave their own planets, simply because they don't have access to space travel at all. Regarding the Emperor not controlling the spice production directly - that's because it's part of their customary power balancing arrangement. If the Emperor controlled the spice directly, it would give him the ability to control space travel for all the Landsraad Great Houses, upsetting the balance of power between the two. The Houses can overpower the Emperor with military force, but only if they all join forces - and this is exactly the action that would trigger such an alliance. The other aspect is access to profits: the whole point of CHOAM is to distribute wealth from interplanetary trade to the Emperor and the Houses, which is why it has a monopoly on trade. Again, the Houses simply cannot afford to lose that much profit while having the Emperor gain it (and use it to increase his military strength). I agree that it's very strange how origin of spice is such a mystery, given that every Fremen knows about it.
- Slow_Hand 5y ago
  I thought it was well understood where spice comes from: The worms. The issue is that they would not survive off Arrakis and that people are unable to synthesize a replacement.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    “Ah-h, the worms,” the Duke said. “I must see one sometime.” “You may see one today,” Kynes said. “Wherever there is spice, there are worms.” “Always?” Halleck asked. “Always.” “Is there a relationship between worm and spice?” the Duke asked. Kynes turned and Paul saw the pursed lips as the man spoke. “They defend spice sands. Each worm has a — territory. As to the spice … who knows? Worm specimens we’ve examined lead us to suspect complicated chemical interchanges within them. We find traces of hydrochloric acid in the ducts, more complicated acid forms elsewhere. I’ll give you my monograph on the subject.” ... “Why hasn’t an effort been made to wipe them out?” Paul asked. “Too expensive,” Kynes said. “Too much area to cover.” Paul leaned back in his corner. His truthsense, awareness of tone shadings, told him that Kynes was lying and telling half-truths. And he thought: If there’s a relationship between spice and worms, killing the worms would destroy the spice.
zwkrt 5y ago
Well you can’t create a whole universe in a book, only the faintest facsimile. And you have to understand Dune in the contest of history, the only comprable world in modern history at the time was LOTR, which was far less alien than Dune. That being said, I agree with everything you say. Dune is so frustrating because the prose and perspectives jump from being incredibly wise to totally inane.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Maybe it’s one of my mental illnesses, but I really hate the way Herbert uses the word “thing.” Maybe it’s reminiscent of the time but I never saw another old scifi book use it in that way.
mhh__ 5y ago
To a certain extent it's supposed to be a a little bit teen superhero-y, so you get dragged along with the myth of Paul Adreides too i.e. he wants you too like Paul, so you get dragged along by/with him. For what it's worth I see Dune as much more of a space opera than a avant-garde sci-fi book. For me I basically view it as star wars but as if George Lucas wasn't a hack. When I saw the new movie open with "dreams are just messages from the deep", I was just totally in love with the iconography of dune and was genuinely kind of miffed we don't get this kind of film more often versus whatever star wars is. The thing with Dune's world building isn't that it's realistic, it's not very realistic, but rather that it's still blindingly original, to my western eyes at least - the way Herbert approaches religion and culture is a really good balance between wow-factor, critique, and avoiding pretense. All in all I guess it's in the eye of the beholder so my comment contains no insight ;)
edgyquant 5y ago
I really didn’t like Dune at all either. I was so excited to read it as it was highly recommended but before I got half way through I knew I hated it. It was boring and a bit pretentious to boot. I also don’t tend to like settings that just project some past era unto a far future as I feel it’s a bit lame and uncreative. I originally planned to read all three just to be sure until I found out it ends with his son as a giant worm. I’ll stick with the Culture series where even if it’s crazy it seems like how a truly futuristic society would govern themselves. That said there are things I like about the setting and I applaud Herbert for trying to deconstruct the whole great man schtick.
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
>suddenly there is the great Jihad except we don’t really know why it’s happening, to whom, and who is winning i think that is the essence of a Jihad, the followers are not allowed to question it.
burntoutfire 5y ago
Dune was fresh for its time because it introduced some ecological thinking into pop culture. Reading it in 2021, none of it is fresh anymore, so we're left with a generic SF story.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

int_19h 5y ago

The narrow locality is intentional. Remember, this is "feudalism in space", with many things - like shields - deliberately contrived to make it somewhat plausible. A very important part of the resulting arrangement of society is how static it is, not just in abstract matters like social structure, but also very literally in movement of people. The vast majority in this universe never leave their own planets, simply because they don't have access to space travel at all. Regarding the Emperor not controlling the spice production directly - that's because it's part of their customary power balancing arrangement. If the Emperor controlled the spice directly, it would give him the ability to control space travel for all the Landsraad Great Houses, upsetting the balance of power between the two. The Houses can overpower the Emperor with military force, but only if they all join forces - and this is exactly the action that would trigger such an alliance. The other aspect is access to profits: the whole point of CHOAM is to distribute wealth from interplanetary trade to the Emperor and the Houses, which is why it has a monopoly on trade. Again, the Houses simply cannot afford to lose that much profit while having the Emperor gain it (and use it to increase his military strength). I agree that it's very strange how origin of spice is such a mystery, given that every Fremen knows about it.

Slow_Hand 5y ago
I thought it was well understood where spice comes from: The worms. The issue is that they would not survive off Arrakis and that people are unable to synthesize a replacement.
- int_19h 5y ago
  “Ah-h, the worms,” the Duke said. “I must see one sometime.” “You may see one today,” Kynes said. “Wherever there is spice, there are worms.” “Always?” Halleck asked. “Always.” “Is there a relationship between worm and spice?” the Duke asked. Kynes turned and Paul saw the pursed lips as the man spoke. “They defend spice sands. Each worm has a — territory. As to the spice … who knows? Worm specimens we’ve examined lead us to suspect complicated chemical interchanges within them. We find traces of hydrochloric acid in the ducts, more complicated acid forms elsewhere. I’ll give you my monograph on the subject.” ... “Why hasn’t an effort been made to wipe them out?” Paul asked. “Too expensive,” Kynes said. “Too much area to cover.” Paul leaned back in his corner. His truthsense, awareness of tone shadings, told him that Kynes was lying and telling half-truths. And he thought: If there’s a relationship between spice and worms, killing the worms would destroy the spice.

zwkrt 5y ago

Well you can’t create a whole universe in a book, only the faintest facsimile. And you have to understand Dune in the contest of history, the only comprable world in modern history at the time was LOTR, which was far less alien than Dune. That being said, I agree with everything you say. Dune is so frustrating because the prose and perspectives jump from being incredibly wise to totally inane.

edgyquant 5y ago
Maybe it’s one of my mental illnesses, but I really hate the way Herbert uses the word “thing.” Maybe it’s reminiscent of the time but I never saw another old scifi book use it in that way.

mhh__ 5y ago

To a certain extent it's supposed to be a a little bit teen superhero-y, so you get dragged along with the myth of Paul Adreides too i.e. he wants you too like Paul, so you get dragged along by/with him. For what it's worth I see Dune as much more of a space opera than a avant-garde sci-fi book. For me I basically view it as star wars but as if George Lucas wasn't a hack. When I saw the new movie open with "dreams are just messages from the deep", I was just totally in love with the iconography of dune and was genuinely kind of miffed we don't get this kind of film more often versus whatever star wars is. The thing with Dune's world building isn't that it's realistic, it's not very realistic, but rather that it's still blindingly original, to my western eyes at least - the way Herbert approaches religion and culture is a really good balance between wow-factor, critique, and avoiding pretense. All in all I guess it's in the eye of the beholder so my comment contains no insight ;)

edgyquant 5y ago

I really didn’t like Dune at all either. I was so excited to read it as it was highly recommended but before I got half way through I knew I hated it. It was boring and a bit pretentious to boot. I also don’t tend to like settings that just project some past era unto a far future as I feel it’s a bit lame and uncreative. I originally planned to read all three just to be sure until I found out it ends with his son as a giant worm. I’ll stick with the Culture series where even if it’s crazy it seems like how a truly futuristic society would govern themselves. That said there are things I like about the setting and I applaud Herbert for trying to deconstruct the whole great man schtick.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

>suddenly there is the great Jihad except we don’t really know why it’s happening, to whom, and who is winning i think that is the essence of a Jihad, the followers are not allowed to question it.

burntoutfire 5y ago

Dune was fresh for its time because it introduced some ecological thinking into pop culture. Reading it in 2021, none of it is fresh anymore, so we're left with a generic SF story.