4 ms·

One question I’d ask is why there would be an inherent conflict between superior technology and harmony with nature?

noisy_boy 5y ago
I think that with sufficiently advanced technology, there would be immense understanding of nature resulting in elimination of any need to be in conflict with the nature because one would simply solve their needs by enveloping or integrating with nature instead of going against it.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Yes, but 'Enough Tech and Knowledge to do Whatever Whenever at Planetary Sale' ... that's a million years away. In the meantime, to answer the OP's question, the issue is that there is an inflection point at which man has enough tech to start changing nature, by disrupting parts of those systems. That's probably huge distinction between most of Europe/Asia and the rest of the world in the Columbian era. Aboriginals cultures mostly did not have the ability to shape the land (and where they had they tech, they did disrupt). Forget narratives one way or the other - they were by and large 'way behind'. And things took a an even bigger, massive jump when we harnessed fossil fuels. The glamorization of 'In Concert With Nature' is I think mostly just the fact that they didn't have the power to do anything otherwise.
smsm42 5y ago
It's not inherent, but having a powerful technology you understand may tempt you into applying it to things you don't understand to force them be more understandable. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it does not, and one has to have a measure of humility, so that having a powerful hammer not to start treating everything as a nail. European civilization, unfortunately, fell into this failure mode not once (maybe others too, we just know about European failures the most). We still can observe it in hi-tech where "we just add some ML and big data to it and it's solved" led people astray many times. Sometimes it worked, surely, but sometimes the amount of subject domain knowledge required to deal with the problem was vastly underestimated. One example just from recent days is the Zillow fiasco. It doesn't have to be on the planet Pandora, we can see it everywhere, both in history and around us right now.
photochemsyn 5y ago
There's no inherent reason superior technology would lead to the destabilization of an ecosystem (aka 'harmony with nature'). A good example is the introduction of the hunting rifle to Inuit culture, as I understand it. Prior to this hunting near the Arctic Circle was a far more difficult endeavor, as sneaking up on seals and caribou is not easy even with a high skill level. As a result, famine became much less common and hunting took much less time. Now, if the Inuit had tried to get extremely wealthy by using their rifles to hunt seals and caribou as the basis of a large and ever-growing export industry, they'd have indeed destabilized the ecosystem and there would have been a collapse in the population of seals and caribou, as seen with European hunters of wildlife in North America with beavers and bison and passenger pigeons. If that had happened, the Inuit themselves would most likely have followed the local animals into extinction. [edit] Note with bison, there was a deliberate extermination policy pursued by the US government as a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program). This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  “ This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.” At least for beaver, free and ecological illiteracy does paint most of the picture (though, in fairness, ‘extermination’ may be too strong)
- skrebbel 5y ago
  > a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program) Do you have any references about this? It's the first time I heard of it and googling for "the genocidal starvation program" only gets me hits on that other genocidal starvation program, the Holodomor.
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Wikipedia seems to cite: Isenberg. The Destruction of the Bison. pp. 136–7, 151–2. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th_century_bison_hunts_and_near_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th_century_bis...

I think that with sufficiently advanced technology, there would be immense understanding of nature resulting in elimination of any need to be in conflict with the nature because one would simply solve their needs by enveloping or integrating with nature instead of going against it.

jollybean 5y ago
Yes, but 'Enough Tech and Knowledge to do Whatever Whenever at Planetary Sale' ... that's a million years away. In the meantime, to answer the OP's question, the issue is that there is an inflection point at which man has enough tech to start changing nature, by disrupting parts of those systems. That's probably huge distinction between most of Europe/Asia and the rest of the world in the Columbian era. Aboriginals cultures mostly did not have the ability to shape the land (and where they had they tech, they did disrupt). Forget narratives one way or the other - they were by and large 'way behind'. And things took a an even bigger, massive jump when we harnessed fossil fuels. The glamorization of 'In Concert With Nature' is I think mostly just the fact that they didn't have the power to do anything otherwise.

smsm42 5y ago

It's not inherent, but having a powerful technology you understand may tempt you into applying it to things you don't understand to force them be more understandable. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it does not, and one has to have a measure of humility, so that having a powerful hammer not to start treating everything as a nail. European civilization, unfortunately, fell into this failure mode not once (maybe others too, we just know about European failures the most). We still can observe it in hi-tech where "we just add some ML and big data to it and it's solved" led people astray many times. Sometimes it worked, surely, but sometimes the amount of subject domain knowledge required to deal with the problem was vastly underestimated. One example just from recent days is the Zillow fiasco. It doesn't have to be on the planet Pandora, we can see it everywhere, both in history and around us right now.

photochemsyn 5y ago

There's no inherent reason superior technology would lead to the destabilization of an ecosystem (aka 'harmony with nature'). A good example is the introduction of the hunting rifle to Inuit culture, as I understand it. Prior to this hunting near the Arctic Circle was a far more difficult endeavor, as sneaking up on seals and caribou is not easy even with a high skill level. As a result, famine became much less common and hunting took much less time. Now, if the Inuit had tried to get extremely wealthy by using their rifles to hunt seals and caribou as the basis of a large and ever-growing export industry, they'd have indeed destabilized the ecosystem and there would have been a collapse in the population of seals and caribou, as seen with European hunters of wildlife in North America with beavers and bison and passenger pigeons. If that had happened, the Inuit themselves would most likely have followed the local animals into extinction. [edit] Note with bison, there was a deliberate extermination policy pursued by the US government as a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program). This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.

germinalphrase 5y ago
“ This doesn't explain the extermination of beaver and other wildlife populations, however.” At least for beaver, free and ecological illiteracy does paint most of the picture (though, in fairness, ‘extermination’ may be too strong)
skrebbel 5y ago
> a means of destroying the food supply of various indigenous tribes that relied on bison for sustenance (aka the genocidal starvation program) Do you have any references about this? It's the first time I heard of it and googling for "the genocidal starvation program" only gets me hits on that other genocidal starvation program, the Holodomor.
- bawolff 5y ago
  Wikipedia seems to cite: Isenberg. The Destruction of the Bison. pp. 136–7, 151–2. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th_century_bison_hunts_and_near_extinction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting#19th_century_bis...