4 ms·

The prescience of the book in regards to climate change doesn't lie in the fact that it's some sort of literal retelling of the climate science of earth (hint,

The prescience of the book in regards to climate change doesn't lie in the fact that it's some sort of literal retelling of the climate science of earth (hint, it's an allergorical piece of fiction) it lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. Firstly, the immense influence of humanity on climate and the ecology of a planet and the intertwined nature between social activity and ecology, the motivation for negative impacts on the ecology lying in the exploitation and overuse of the planets resources, and third the disproportionate impact of this on native populations, and the inability of people to understand the consequences of disturbing complex systems. (no surprise given that Herbert was intellectually close to systems thinkers from Santa Fe) You think Dune does not address climate change because in the story the planet was already deserted? Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs?

mr_toad 5y ago
> lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. If FH really wanted to write about ecology he could have spend a much greater proportion of the brook talking about it, when all we have on Sandworm ecology from FH himself is a handful of paragraphs spread across six novels. As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. Lastly, if we’re looking at FH books on the human impact on ecology, we should start with The Green Brain which was explicitly about ecology.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  >As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin .. which are the native population of Arrakis as nomadic desert people are the native populations of their respective region, being caught in the feud of great colonial powers of the empire? The inspiration for this are indeed Bedouin, some people argue Berber and of course Arab people and FH explicitly stated that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the book, which seems pretty obvious.
  - mr_toad 5y ago
    I’d debate the extent that they were ‘caught’ in the feud. The imperial powers barely ventured into the desert. They had barely any contact with the true Fremen. Most of Arrakis was unexplored and considered uninhabitable. Similarly it’s difficult to see the Bedouin and Berber tribes as being oppressed . The Romans, Persians etc mostly stuck to the coasts and rivers and avoided the deep desert. The same is true on Dune. When the Muslim armies swept out of the desert they didn’t throw off oppression, they came out of nowhere to crush the Persians and nearly end the Romans, establishing one of the world’s largest empires. They did plenty of colonisation of their own. And their cultural and scientific impact on the world continues today. Similarly the Fremen were grossly underestimated by the Empire. They were barely aware of their existence, but as it turned out they were far more numerous, culturally sophisticated and technology advanced than anyone knew.
- slavik81 5y ago
  > They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. I've never been able to find this quote again, but IIRC after one of his friends/editors read some of his early work on Dune, they told him something to the effect of, "Dammit, Frank. People want to read stories about people!" It may be that he doesn't spend much ink on them because it didn't make for a captivating story.
- mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
  > As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. They're very heavily based off of the people who lived in the Caucasus. Herbert basically lifts phrasing used in the book The Sabres of Paradise to describe the Fremen word for word
EarlKing 5y ago
- bananamerica 5y ago
  I'm not sure Frank Herbert would agree with you. https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00
  - EarlKing 5y ago
    Good links both, but in both cases he never expresses or implies his works are allegorical. He's quite clear in both of these links why he wrote. In the first one he states his point was: "Don't trust leaders to always be right." He expands on that in the second: "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'may be dangerous to your health'. I mean I think the most dangerous president we've had or one of the most dangerous at least, not because he was a bad guy but because people didn't question him... one of the most dangerous presidents that we've had in this century was Jack Kennedy because people said 'Yes sir, Mr. Charismatic leader, what'll we do next?' And we wound up in Vietnam. People don't realize that he was one of the major moving forces getting us into Vietnam." And further: "And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon because he taught us to distrust government... and he did it by example... which is the best kind of teaching." He openly talks about wanting to know why people drank the koo-aid or said Sieg Heil and murdered Jews and Gypsies... but at no time does he say his work was allegorical. These were simply ideas he wanted to convey in his work. It's funny, though... at around the 30:00 mark in that second link there was someone very offended at his writing of gay characters, saying that his writing of them would only lead to violence against gays. His response was insightful, truthful, and pure comedy gold... but the kid seemed very disturbed. He, like some in this thread, seemed to read into the book what he wanted to read, and was incensed when no one else agreed with him. :D One last note: That second link was almost certainly a great talk, but the UCLA's recording is clearly damaged. The recording cuts out so much that it is extremely aggravating to try to listen to it.
WalterBright 5y ago
> Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs? I read many books in the "Freddy the Pig" series, and picked up Animal Farm when I was 8. I thought it, too, was a book about pigs and read it as a book about pigs. I can vouch that it works as a story about pigs. I didn't realize it was an allegory until maybe a decade later. I also read Dune as a teen, and took it at face value, too. It was a moderately good scifi book, but not good enough to tempt me to read the sequels. I didn't really think much more about it. I've read a lot of scifi books. It also seemed to be much more based on Saharan desert culture than Native American culture. I confess to being out of step in not seeing it as a great story :-/ I've seen all 3 movie versions, thinking "what am I missing" and not finding it.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  I think the thing with Dune is that it has a really strong litmus test to it i.e. if you find the setting interesting then it's a really interesting world, whereas if you don't it can seem quite arbitrary and (I guess) odd. I'm not sure exactly what to put my finger on but the melting pot of culture and religion explicit throughout the book, wrapped in a psychedelic haze is definitely a draw for me. It's definitely more of a below-the-neck type of experience vs. (say) a Dick novel. Wrt to the new movie I'm just glad that Denis Villeneuve is getting funded. His sci-fi movies are some of the only big movies in and around the genre (especially if you compare (say) Dune to star wars) which seem to be actively trying to tell a story at their own pace. He's a very smart and unpretentious person too, any interview with him is a much watch for me.
  - yongjik 5y ago
    Until about a third of the movie, I was thinking "This is how they should have made a Star Wars film! Why couldn't they make one like this?" ...and then of course I stopped thinking of Star Wars altogether. :)
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      Just wait for the Dune Cinematic Universe
Karishma1234fff 5y ago
Well, all civilizations are full of stories of men waging war on oceans, burning down forests to reclaim lands, breaking mountains and all the wageries of such things. Dune was neither the first nor is the last and linking it with climate change is purely some kind of bias.

mr_toad 5y ago

> lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. If FH really wanted to write about ecology he could have spend a much greater proportion of the brook talking about it, when all we have on Sandworm ecology from FH himself is a handful of paragraphs spread across six novels. As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. Lastly, if we’re looking at FH books on the human impact on ecology, we should start with The Green Brain which was explicitly about ecology.

Barrin92 5y ago
>As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin .. which are the native population of Arrakis as nomadic desert people are the native populations of their respective region, being caught in the feud of great colonial powers of the empire? The inspiration for this are indeed Bedouin, some people argue Berber and of course Arab people and FH explicitly stated that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the book, which seems pretty obvious.
- mr_toad 5y ago
  I’d debate the extent that they were ‘caught’ in the feud. The imperial powers barely ventured into the desert. They had barely any contact with the true Fremen. Most of Arrakis was unexplored and considered uninhabitable. Similarly it’s difficult to see the Bedouin and Berber tribes as being oppressed . The Romans, Persians etc mostly stuck to the coasts and rivers and avoided the deep desert. The same is true on Dune. When the Muslim armies swept out of the desert they didn’t throw off oppression, they came out of nowhere to crush the Persians and nearly end the Romans, establishing one of the world’s largest empires. They did plenty of colonisation of their own. And their cultural and scientific impact on the world continues today. Similarly the Fremen were grossly underestimated by the Empire. They were barely aware of their existence, but as it turned out they were far more numerous, culturally sophisticated and technology advanced than anyone knew.
slavik81 5y ago
> They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. I've never been able to find this quote again, but IIRC after one of his friends/editors read some of his early work on Dune, they told him something to the effect of, "Dammit, Frank. People want to read stories about people!" It may be that he doesn't spend much ink on them because it didn't make for a captivating story.
mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
> As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. They're very heavily based off of the people who lived in the Caucasus. Herbert basically lifts phrasing used in the book The Sabres of Paradise to describe the Fremen word for word

EarlKing 5y ago

bananamerica 5y ago
I'm not sure Frank Herbert would agree with you. https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00
- EarlKing 5y ago
  Good links both, but in both cases he never expresses or implies his works are allegorical. He's quite clear in both of these links why he wrote. In the first one he states his point was: "Don't trust leaders to always be right." He expands on that in the second: "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'may be dangerous to your health'. I mean I think the most dangerous president we've had or one of the most dangerous at least, not because he was a bad guy but because people didn't question him... one of the most dangerous presidents that we've had in this century was Jack Kennedy because people said 'Yes sir, Mr. Charismatic leader, what'll we do next?' And we wound up in Vietnam. People don't realize that he was one of the major moving forces getting us into Vietnam." And further: "And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon because he taught us to distrust government... and he did it by example... which is the best kind of teaching." He openly talks about wanting to know why people drank the koo-aid or said Sieg Heil and murdered Jews and Gypsies... but at no time does he say his work was allegorical. These were simply ideas he wanted to convey in his work. It's funny, though... at around the 30:00 mark in that second link there was someone very offended at his writing of gay characters, saying that his writing of them would only lead to violence against gays. His response was insightful, truthful, and pure comedy gold... but the kid seemed very disturbed. He, like some in this thread, seemed to read into the book what he wanted to read, and was incensed when no one else agreed with him. :D One last note: That second link was almost certainly a great talk, but the UCLA's recording is clearly damaged. The recording cuts out so much that it is extremely aggravating to try to listen to it.

WalterBright 5y ago

> Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs? I read many books in the "Freddy the Pig" series, and picked up Animal Farm when I was 8. I thought it, too, was a book about pigs and read it as a book about pigs. I can vouch that it works as a story about pigs. I didn't realize it was an allegory until maybe a decade later. I also read Dune as a teen, and took it at face value, too. It was a moderately good scifi book, but not good enough to tempt me to read the sequels. I didn't really think much more about it. I've read a lot of scifi books. It also seemed to be much more based on Saharan desert culture than Native American culture. I confess to being out of step in not seeing it as a great story :-/ I've seen all 3 movie versions, thinking "what am I missing" and not finding it.

mhh__ 5y ago
I think the thing with Dune is that it has a really strong litmus test to it i.e. if you find the setting interesting then it's a really interesting world, whereas if you don't it can seem quite arbitrary and (I guess) odd. I'm not sure exactly what to put my finger on but the melting pot of culture and religion explicit throughout the book, wrapped in a psychedelic haze is definitely a draw for me. It's definitely more of a below-the-neck type of experience vs. (say) a Dick novel. Wrt to the new movie I'm just glad that Denis Villeneuve is getting funded. His sci-fi movies are some of the only big movies in and around the genre (especially if you compare (say) Dune to star wars) which seem to be actively trying to tell a story at their own pace. He's a very smart and unpretentious person too, any interview with him is a much watch for me.
- yongjik 5y ago
  Until about a third of the movie, I was thinking "This is how they should have made a Star Wars film! Why couldn't they make one like this?" ...and then of course I stopped thinking of Star Wars altogether. :)
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    Just wait for the Dune Cinematic Universe

Karishma1234fff 5y ago

Well, all civilizations are full of stories of men waging war on oceans, burning down forests to reclaim lands, breaking mountains and all the wageries of such things. Dune was neither the first nor is the last and linking it with climate change is purely some kind of bias.