12 ms·

Dear self: we need to talk about social media

129 points by luu 5y ago

jdavis703 5y ago
> But now there is in-person socializing again I’ve been struggling with this. I either forgot where & how to socialize, or socializing is not actually back. Even though we’re back to normal, I feel as disconnected as ever. What are remote workers doing to socialize without social media these days?
- ok_dad 5y ago
  I’m with you, I have no friends and I’m getting really depressed. Online games and friends aren’t a replacement and I don’t know where to go these days to meet people who have my interests. I don’t even know how to talk to strangers anymore, and I wasn’t very good at it before the past 2 years. I’m sick of spending all my time with my wife and kid, even though I love them. I can’t go many places or interact with people who aren’t very safe, because my wife has bad lungs and if she gets Covid there’s a real chance she’ll die, even vaccinated and boosted. What do people do about that? I’m getting to the point where I just work all the time to pass time and the rest I’m doing stuff for my family like chores and errands. I’m not doing great right now. Edit because who the f downvotes this? Fuck you ya dirty rat.
  - labster 5y ago
    Downvoted because parent reminds me of how isolated and meaningless my own life is. This is The Holidays, a time for palliative lies, not honest assessments of our cultural alienation. Though Dickens might disagree with me.
    - winternett 5y ago
      Get out of that hole man... The holiDAYS are just DAYS... Literally nothing special to them if they aren't special to you. Each day is a new opportunity to make yourself more comfortable in life, not by buying stuff, or being with people, but by finding out what really creates happiness for you. Worry about what you can control, and fix those things. Also take vitamin D, it helps to fight seasonal depression.
  - DarylZero 5y ago
    Me too.
  - winternett 5y ago
    Try reaching out to old friends, share your phone number and transition to phone calls. Text messaging is what makes many feel so disconnected because there are no vocal or facial expressions involved. Also, just practice talking to random strangers, you'll find that some people who are just hanging out outdoors in parks are going through the same emotions you are. Don't place expectations on anyone to be a committed friend, just start chats with strangers and let that be it until you feel comfortable with asking for phone numbers or coffee/tea hangouts and then work up from there. Don't expect anything from anyone, work on your personal happiness, hobbies, being available when people try to chat with you, and stability (financial, mental, and physical health) in the world. Some of the best conversations I've had in life were one-time chats with strangers, they tailor their words to us less than friends because they don't know us. You'll be surprised how friendships just fall into view when you do that without expectations. Don't think about it, just try it.
    - ok_dad 5y ago
      Good advice, thank you.
- throwaway55421 5y ago
  Meet up groups, popping to the pub for lunch and meeting the locals, knocking on neighbour's doors to introduce yourself, asking an old friend if they want to come over and play some Goldeneye. You just have to actually do it. For disclosure though, I don't work remotely, the benefits (mainly skipping a bit of cycling each day) seem minor to me compared to the downsides. And I never stopped socializing to begin with since I think corona is overblown, so I'm maintaining and adding to social groups. I have lost a lot of friends too, of course.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > popping to the pub for lunch and meeting the locals, knocking on neighbour's doors to introduce yoursel No one will talk to you in pub, "locals" are with their established friend group or at home. And knocking to introduce yourself is weird, and still people won't socialize with you because you knocked. They have own plans and ow isolated lifes
    - throwaway55421 5y ago
      Introducing yourself to your neighbours is too "weird" for you? Well, revealed preferences I guess. Best of luck. I enjoy chatting to my neighbours and I'd have no issue with them popping in for a cup of tea.
      - watwut 5y ago
        Yes it is. People don't do that. No one goes through apartment complex knocking on doors and introducing themselves. By no one I literally means no one. And it is not a thing that would be done in the past either.
        throwaway55421 5y ago
        It's interesting that we can have such different life experiences. Well, me and my neighbours are happy to be weird in your view. You do you. I don't think you're weird btw, just less social I guess?
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Some good suggestions in here. Even the suggestions specific to the author's personal habits are portable to other habits. Worth noting that this is about more than just social media. It's about distractions in general and being specific about how you fill your time. Ironically, some of the most distracted people I've ever worked with had proudly sworn off "social media" long ago. Yet they were constantly buried in discussion forums (LessWrong, HN, Reddit, IRC) that weren't traditional Facebook/Instagram style social media sites. Whatever distinction you use doesn't really matter. More generally, it's important to be deliberate with the notifications you allow into your life and the activities you use to fill idle time. Both iOS and Android have facilities to limit notifications during certain periods. Use them liberally. Many apps, including social apps, work just fine with notifications disabled. I might check Instagram once a day and I can respond to any messages at that time. I'm not missing anything by using a poll instead of a push method for checking these.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  > Yet they were constantly buried in discussion forums Well, I am like that. I find social media to be too addictive/distracting so I am off that shit completely. Older-school stuff is also addictive but to a lesser extent.
walrus01 5y ago
If you are not going to take the steps of ceasing to use some of these things... one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. do not enable anything that brings itself to your attention and requires an action like swipe-down from android top menu, look at notification, possibly click on it. only view the content of whatever is in the app when you specifically choose to open it. I find these days that I get much more value out of a private signal chat group that has about 50 people in it, all of whom have notifications for the group turned off and leave messages/post things asynchronously (almost exactly as you might see people using IRC for in 1998), than the big company run social media. At any given time there might be 4-5 active people in it since everyone is busy with careers, real life, and are spread out across almost all of the world's timezones.
- indymike 5y ago
  > one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. This is the trick. When you engage communication on your own terms, the outcomes are better - for you, and often for the rest of the world. Facebook looks totally different when you aren't just reacting. Much easier to focus on the things you really are interested in instead of what the algorithm wants you to pay attention to.
  - simonebrunozzi 5y ago
    > one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. Came to say the same thing. The only notification I have on my phone is SMS, and thankfully very few people send me SMS these days.
    - civilized 5y ago
      I don't get many either but I'd still love a feature that delayed SMS notifications for everyone except my wife to once per day.
  - debaserab2 5y ago
dsaavy 5y ago
I liked the style of this blog post/self-addressed letter. I found myself brainstorming many of the methods for Quiet that the author mentions. Side note: I've always wondered how much potential is lost in the current generations because of the constant distractions (of all kinds). The type of deep and creative thinking that comes from boredom and a lack of interruptions can drive great change and ideas from a personal and societal perspective. The switching cost of focus changes is a real issue in thinking in deep ways. And the cost of doing it frequently is definitely a drain and cause of atrophy in overall focus ability. Trying to rein in your ability to focus for longer periods of time is HARD. It's mentally and even physically uncomfortable.
- andrejserafim 5y ago
  This and also being able to satisfy an itch at any moment. Be it youtube or facebook, whatever your favourite drug is. It's infinitely available and is much easier than any other form of activity. But in an of itself doesn't create anything. Mindless content consumption doesn't even leave memories sometimes, what to say of ideas.
  - wussboy 5y ago
    I realize it is too late to get rid of mobile devices. But I have long advocated for “Techno-lent”: a period of forty days and nights where you put your mobile devices off and in a drawer, you turn off your WiFi. Before you claim it is impossible because of your work, is it really? Did you try and think of a way that was possible?
    - vitaflo 5y ago
      Many moons ago a friend of mine came up with an idea called "Experimonth". Where you would pick something you want to do, and do it for an entire month. Something like wake up at 4am or not eat any meat, etc. I've done many of these and they were great, including giving up the internet and computers/phones, with the exception of work. This was back when I went into the office and I limited myself to only work related tasks there. Wifi and computers were turned off and phones put away at home for a month. It's actually somewhat difficult to break the habit and very boring. But after about the third week you start to get used to it. By the end of the month when I could go back to "normal" I realized there was very little I actually wanted back. Mostly it was a few games I wanted to play and texting with friends on a regular basis. I lost all interest in social media after it (and that's still true) and I became very annoyed by the "ding" of the phone so I turned off all notifications and set it on DND full time (and that is also still true). Another thing that's I got out of it is I notice how much time everyone else is distracted by their phones. It's really crazy to see when you're not one of them.
yob28 5y ago
- C19is20 5y ago
  200% agree, and have done. Er....but, (posting on) hn!....oh, the irony.
  - alexjplant 5y ago
    A news aggregator with a heavily-modded comments section frequented by interesting, educated people is hardly the same as a platform that drives engagement to attract advertisers by crassly exploiting our basest human desires. Social media platforms are basically systems that front conversion funnels with image macros and pictures of butts. Hacker News' goal is to inspire thoughtful discourse.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I don't consider HN to be in the same category of most social media apps, though it has some of the danger zones. There's a Hacker News Demetricifier extension that helps a lot with "oooh, let's see how many upvoties my wise, intelligent comment got this time!" checking. I draw the line at "algorithmic, individualized feeds." To the best of my knowledge, HN state is global (to within whatever level of distributed consensus is required for the server infrastructure). If I look at HN, what I see in terms of front page state and comment order is what other people see, and what non-logged-in users see. It's not optimized for what the algorithm things I want to see - and that's the difference. There are still plenty of dark patterns one can integrate within this space, and I think Reddit is in a very grey zone (I no longer use it because I don't like what the new interface has done to technical text content and their pending IPO or whatever is certain to ruin what's left). The only real improvement I'd offer to HN is the ability to hide your own comment upvote/downvote comments as a check toggle somewhere, to demetricify it even more, while still maintaining the ability to moderate content. That comment scores other than your own is hidden is a great improvement. If there's a better line, I'd be interested in hearing it, but my personal point is "individualized, algorithmic feeds are evil."
winternett 5y ago
Different things work for different people. My main frustration is with the need for social media to drive dependency, addiction, and engagement. I am weary of content and UI controls that increasingly are overly monopolizing my time just to get to a point that is often totally a waste of time, and/or not funny. If social media algorithms were actually accurate in determining what I really like to watch, instead of just being dedicated towards steering me towards consumerism (that I'm not going to engage in anyway) my feelings would be different about it not being a useful friend anymore. I just use it in small doses when I'm bored or waiting for a project to render or build now and as places to collect/share my shower thoughts and funny things I find.
quocanh 5y ago
A bit off topic. I think it's fascinating when people say that meditation doesn't work for them but then discover the benefits of meditative states all on their own. That's what Quiet is anyway.
- neuronic 5y ago
  Meditation works for them but they have to overcome many obstacles before seeing even the slightest sliver of success. The brain is manipulated into a very agitated state due to constant engagement. 24/7-be-ready on your phone with 35 TikTok videos followed by WhatsApp messages and then 3 emails from your boss after 8pm. You have to overcome this shit to even just reach the starting point of people who tried meditation a few decades ago.
  - quocanh 5y ago
    The tricky thing is how do you tell someone this? It's like being unable to do a pullup. You can try but if you can't even get one rep in then it just feels like wasted effort. The way that the author figured out on her own is a great way to learn how to meditate. If you can't do meditation, then don't. Try reading a book. Turning off your phone. Going for a walk. Just like how if you can't do a pullup, do light dumbbell curls or use the assisted weight machine. Do the easier thing first and then you'll build up strength. I suspect that if she were to try meditation today, then she would be ready. It's not so hard. We were all born with the Quiet.
DangitBobby 5y ago
I don't have very healthy relationship with online communications, and especially social media. Generally I find any disruption from deep thought, especially notifications from my phone, chat, and email, to be very aggravating or even stressful. If I'm really into my work, I will audibly grumble or say "what!" loudly (I work at home by myself so this doesn't bother anyone else). I have to carefully curate all notifications (and in the case of email, be diligent about unsubscribing from newsletters/marketing material I didn't sign up for) to minimize disruption for my own sanity. Even when I'm not working, a generic notification from my phone is stressful because the thought that it could be something that I have to deal with right now doesn't go away until I check it. Because of this, I have to blacklist any application that will happily send me useless notifications, which includes basically all social media apps, which means I don't know when someone is genuinely trying to engage with me on social media unless I visit all the time. As a result, I basically don't use social media. It's unfortunate to miss things that people only plan via indirect communication because of that, but it is what it is. I definitely feel like the ubiquity of planning and communication via e.g. Facebook means that I miss out on a lot of social events and interaction, so I must ironically conclude that I am alienated from most of my peers as a result of social media.
- walrus01 5y ago
  With android 8/9/10 it's totally possible to 100% disable all ability for a specific app to send any notifications at all. Not in the settings within the app, but at the operating system level. Not sure if same on iOS.
  - neuronic 5y ago
    Since iOS 15 it has been very easy to just configure a Focus mode. I put all (and I mean all) apps and contacts in a silent-list during whichever time I feel like being left alone. Can still define certain contacts to reach you in case of emergency and so on. Love it - silencing the phone is the best thing ever. Starve the attention economy of attention and let all the bad actors like Facebook/Meta slowly perish.
  - DangitBobby 5y ago
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
There is too much data out there for any human to manage. There is no algorithm that will be able to show the "correct" data (#) to any subset of people, whoever defines correct. So tommy simple mind we need automated help, and so need all data producers to make data available under common protocols. My pipe dreams are harder now there are no pipes anymore (#) this is a side fallacy of "management" - the idea that somehow senior management can wait for people to come to them with problems and they can decide on policy. You can't decide unless you are deep in the data. You cannot decide it's why we need experts and to trust decentralised decision making because we can trust the incentives. It's also why you should never trust any industry that has a weird business model (filmmaking, hedge funds, airlines) because we cannot correctly see the incentives from the outside. It's why regulators should have a one paragraph description of how the industry they regulate makes its money, posted at the top of all its stationary and web sites etc. It is I think the regulatory holy grail because it will freak everyone out.
mikewarot 5y ago
I've never owned a smart phone, for fear of becoming addicted to it. It seems that was a well founded notion. The two things I think they are useful for are Google Maps (for the Traffic, I know where I'm going), and getting phone numbers to place carry out orders. I don't constantly check email, I don't have a stream of interruptions when I'm away from the computer. Now all I have is the almost daily non-disable-able "amber alerts" that jar me out of my life, and the occasional junk call. When I do consume sites, I try very hard to avoid letting their algorithm decide what I see. With Facebook, for example you can append ?sk=h_chr to the site name, and it will show you thinks in reverse chronological order. I use subscriptions on Youtube, and only use "Home" when I'm bored and want to veg. I curate my sources as best I can.
- Sosh101 5y ago
  The things I would miss without a smartphone: - Maps - Digital tickets / proof-of-something - Payments / Transfers - Taxis
  - blueflow 5y ago
    Things i use without a smartphone: - Maps - Tickets, Vaccination pass - Coins and Cash for Payments - Taxis I hoped for a moment you were kidding. Now i'm a bit sad.
    - Sosh101 5y ago
      Yes I use those things without a smartphone too. I'm just trying share what I think the core sticky features of smartphones are for me. I'd probably also add notes and calendar. I could do without communications other than voice and sms.
    - chrismcb 5y ago
      And yet it gets exceedingly difficult to do that. Lots of tickets online only. Paper maps are hard to find. Hard to call a taxis if you don't have a phone, and public pay phones rare. Not everyone takes cash. A smart phone is nice to have, but it doesn't mean you have to do social media on it
daniel-thompson 5y ago
"We need to talk about X" is a clickbait-y headline that I just never click on anymore. A one-line summary of the main idea would be much more interesting and useful.
- neuronic 5y ago
  But the attention economy demands otherwise. Most people will click it out of being dopamined into caring for 3 seconds.
thewarrior 5y ago
A post about the pitfalls of social media is a cliche at this point. None of these posts with very moralistic tones acknowledge that the ability to participate in a real time text and image adventure with millions of others is something that brings great power. Reading Hacker News has changed my life.I don't always agree with Paul Graham but in my opinion Hacker News is his greatest creation. It changed my outlook as an engineer and I went from being a no name engineer at an ordinary company to a senior engineer at a FANG. Someone I met on Facebook helped me on my journey. I found room mates on Facebook and they're now my friends. Certain obscure subreddits have given me fresh new perspectives and changed how I look at the world. I've been in Twitter DMs with really interesting people. Instagram is a way for a lot of creatives to find an audience whether its photography or art. The feedback mechanisms and publicity have led to some people getting insanely good. I'm still trying to understand TikTok but perhaps I'm getting too old to rewire my brain for it. I do realize how this is all a little too much for my brain that evolved to forage berries and roam jungles. Our brains were not designed to handle the volume and speed. A lot of it is undoubtedly useful but social interactions often have an adversarial element to them. In real life the slower speed and repeated interactions allows us to stay on top of it. Keeping up with all of this imposes a cognitive load. I have started meditating and trying not to respond in anger or indignation to everything I see online. What meditation gives us is the idea of "enough". Everything that we've ever known and more people than have ever lived are a tap or swipe away. We are miniscule in comparison and should try and adjust our expectations for what we hope to accomplish. I use social media knowing my limitations. A tiny brain trying to stay afloat in a sea of information and cyber predators. I'll never comprehend more than a fraction of my filter bubble or keep up with the discourse as it ricochets around the world 10 times before I see it. The next generation will be able to use the highly plastic brains of their childhood to mould themselves to survive and even thrive in this brave new world. I am not going to try and stop them from mastering this new reality. I would educate them about the pitfalls and the need for moderation. I am not going to stop using social media. My life would be poorer for it. The problem is not social media. The problem is that technology has outrun our brains.
localhost 5y ago
News Feed Eradicator is a must-have for all my computers [1] It eliminates the algorithmic feed, but still lets you use the site to look up individual feeds and links to specific posts still continue to work. For me, it helps to eliminate the scrolling temptation. [1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicator/fjcldmjmjhkklehbacihaiopjklihlgg?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicat...
dredmorbius 5y ago
Can we add COWA to the lexicon of FOMO? Consciousness of Wasting Attention.
Falkon1313 5y ago
I think the key is fatigue. You get so many calls from spammers and scammers, you turn off the ringer and just let things go to voice mail. Nobody answers their phone these days unless someone pre-arranges a call or messages first and then escalates it to a voice call. Phone fatigue. So much spam and ham in e-mail that you turn off notifications and just occasionally go check your e-mail to find the 4 things of interest and delete the other 7000. Then wonder if maybe you overlooked and deleted an important one. E-mail fatigue. You get so much junk mail, medical bills that say 'this is not a bill', mailings from places where you've selected e-statements and e-billing only yet they keep mailing - that eventually you stop bothering and it all just piles up on the counter. Until one day you go through it all, find a refund check from the IRS, and rush out to deposit it before it goes stale. Junk mail fatigue. You go to the store to get X, but there are 47 varieties of X to choose from so you end up deciding you don't want it that bad after all and don't end up getting it. Decision fatigue. The description of social media fatigue fits right in. With all that rapid attention switching, it gets hard to focus on anything for any length of time. Your mind starts craving a feed of constant stimulus, but it's exhausting. Attention fatigue. The idea of Quiet with a capital Q is a good way to relax and recover from all that fatigue. My favorite is to take an actual physical book outside into nature and read for awhile, where the only distractions are birds, chipmunks, and butterflies. Unfortunately that doesn't work so well during winter when it's below freezing out, but at least there's still bathtime.
- bruce511 5y ago
  What is this "mail" you speak of? And what is a "check"?
- openfuture 5y ago
  Yep, this is the way we will get some human rights back, people will demand less cognitive taxation.
  - laurent92 5y ago
    The way I imagine upmost luxury, is when you are isolated from brands. When going from Windows to Linux to Mac in 2010, I noticed how there were much fewer popups and attention grabbers (how it has changed since…). Same when going to an upmarket supermarket compared to Carrefour. Rich people are isolated from shopping itself. Imagine how available their minds are!

129 points by luu 5y ago

> But now there is in-person socializing again I’ve been struggling with this. I either forgot where & how to socialize, or socializing is not actually back. Even though we’re back to normal, I feel as disconnected as ever. What are remote workers doing to socialize without social media these days?

ok_dad 5y ago
I’m with you, I have no friends and I’m getting really depressed. Online games and friends aren’t a replacement and I don’t know where to go these days to meet people who have my interests. I don’t even know how to talk to strangers anymore, and I wasn’t very good at it before the past 2 years. I’m sick of spending all my time with my wife and kid, even though I love them. I can’t go many places or interact with people who aren’t very safe, because my wife has bad lungs and if she gets Covid there’s a real chance she’ll die, even vaccinated and boosted. What do people do about that? I’m getting to the point where I just work all the time to pass time and the rest I’m doing stuff for my family like chores and errands. I’m not doing great right now. Edit because who the f downvotes this? Fuck you ya dirty rat.
- labster 5y ago
  Downvoted because parent reminds me of how isolated and meaningless my own life is. This is The Holidays, a time for palliative lies, not honest assessments of our cultural alienation. Though Dickens might disagree with me.
  - winternett 5y ago
    Get out of that hole man... The holiDAYS are just DAYS... Literally nothing special to them if they aren't special to you. Each day is a new opportunity to make yourself more comfortable in life, not by buying stuff, or being with people, but by finding out what really creates happiness for you. Worry about what you can control, and fix those things. Also take vitamin D, it helps to fight seasonal depression.
- DarylZero 5y ago
  Me too.
- winternett 5y ago
  Try reaching out to old friends, share your phone number and transition to phone calls. Text messaging is what makes many feel so disconnected because there are no vocal or facial expressions involved. Also, just practice talking to random strangers, you'll find that some people who are just hanging out outdoors in parks are going through the same emotions you are. Don't place expectations on anyone to be a committed friend, just start chats with strangers and let that be it until you feel comfortable with asking for phone numbers or coffee/tea hangouts and then work up from there. Don't expect anything from anyone, work on your personal happiness, hobbies, being available when people try to chat with you, and stability (financial, mental, and physical health) in the world. Some of the best conversations I've had in life were one-time chats with strangers, they tailor their words to us less than friends because they don't know us. You'll be surprised how friendships just fall into view when you do that without expectations. Don't think about it, just try it.
  - ok_dad 5y ago
    Good advice, thank you.
throwaway55421 5y ago
Meet up groups, popping to the pub for lunch and meeting the locals, knocking on neighbour's doors to introduce yourself, asking an old friend if they want to come over and play some Goldeneye. You just have to actually do it. For disclosure though, I don't work remotely, the benefits (mainly skipping a bit of cycling each day) seem minor to me compared to the downsides. And I never stopped socializing to begin with since I think corona is overblown, so I'm maintaining and adding to social groups. I have lost a lot of friends too, of course.
- watwut 5y ago
  > popping to the pub for lunch and meeting the locals, knocking on neighbour's doors to introduce yoursel No one will talk to you in pub, "locals" are with their established friend group or at home. And knocking to introduce yourself is weird, and still people won't socialize with you because you knocked. They have own plans and ow isolated lifes
  - throwaway55421 5y ago
    Introducing yourself to your neighbours is too "weird" for you? Well, revealed preferences I guess. Best of luck. I enjoy chatting to my neighbours and I'd have no issue with them popping in for a cup of tea.
    - watwut 5y ago
      Yes it is. People don't do that. No one goes through apartment complex knocking on doors and introducing themselves. By no one I literally means no one. And it is not a thing that would be done in the past either.
      - throwaway55421 5y ago
        It's interesting that we can have such different life experiences. Well, me and my neighbours are happy to be weird in your view. You do you. I don't think you're weird btw, just less social I guess?

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Some good suggestions in here. Even the suggestions specific to the author's personal habits are portable to other habits. Worth noting that this is about more than just social media. It's about distractions in general and being specific about how you fill your time. Ironically, some of the most distracted people I've ever worked with had proudly sworn off "social media" long ago. Yet they were constantly buried in discussion forums (LessWrong, HN, Reddit, IRC) that weren't traditional Facebook/Instagram style social media sites. Whatever distinction you use doesn't really matter. More generally, it's important to be deliberate with the notifications you allow into your life and the activities you use to fill idle time. Both iOS and Android have facilities to limit notifications during certain periods. Use them liberally. Many apps, including social apps, work just fine with notifications disabled. I might check Instagram once a day and I can respond to any messages at that time. I'm not missing anything by using a poll instead of a push method for checking these.

331c8c71 5y ago
> Yet they were constantly buried in discussion forums Well, I am like that. I find social media to be too addictive/distracting so I am off that shit completely. Older-school stuff is also addictive but to a lesser extent.

walrus01 5y ago

If you are not going to take the steps of ceasing to use some of these things... one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. do not enable anything that brings itself to your attention and requires an action like swipe-down from android top menu, look at notification, possibly click on it. only view the content of whatever is in the app when you specifically choose to open it. I find these days that I get much more value out of a private signal chat group that has about 50 people in it, all of whom have notifications for the group turned off and leave messages/post things asynchronously (almost exactly as you might see people using IRC for in 1998), than the big company run social media. At any given time there might be 4-5 active people in it since everyone is busy with careers, real life, and are spread out across almost all of the world's timezones.

indymike 5y ago
> one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. This is the trick. When you engage communication on your own terms, the outcomes are better - for you, and often for the rest of the world. Facebook looks totally different when you aren't just reacting. Much easier to focus on the things you really are interested in instead of what the algorithm wants you to pay attention to.
- simonebrunozzi 5y ago
  > one of the best things you can do is disable all forms of mobile app notification from twitter, facebook, instagram apps. Came to say the same thing. The only notification I have on my phone is SMS, and thankfully very few people send me SMS these days.
  - civilized 5y ago
    I don't get many either but I'd still love a feature that delayed SMS notifications for everyone except my wife to once per day.
- debaserab2 5y ago

dsaavy 5y ago

I liked the style of this blog post/self-addressed letter. I found myself brainstorming many of the methods for Quiet that the author mentions. Side note: I've always wondered how much potential is lost in the current generations because of the constant distractions (of all kinds). The type of deep and creative thinking that comes from boredom and a lack of interruptions can drive great change and ideas from a personal and societal perspective. The switching cost of focus changes is a real issue in thinking in deep ways. And the cost of doing it frequently is definitely a drain and cause of atrophy in overall focus ability. Trying to rein in your ability to focus for longer periods of time is HARD. It's mentally and even physically uncomfortable.

andrejserafim 5y ago
This and also being able to satisfy an itch at any moment. Be it youtube or facebook, whatever your favourite drug is. It's infinitely available and is much easier than any other form of activity. But in an of itself doesn't create anything. Mindless content consumption doesn't even leave memories sometimes, what to say of ideas.
- wussboy 5y ago
  I realize it is too late to get rid of mobile devices. But I have long advocated for “Techno-lent”: a period of forty days and nights where you put your mobile devices off and in a drawer, you turn off your WiFi. Before you claim it is impossible because of your work, is it really? Did you try and think of a way that was possible?
  - vitaflo 5y ago
    Many moons ago a friend of mine came up with an idea called "Experimonth". Where you would pick something you want to do, and do it for an entire month. Something like wake up at 4am or not eat any meat, etc. I've done many of these and they were great, including giving up the internet and computers/phones, with the exception of work. This was back when I went into the office and I limited myself to only work related tasks there. Wifi and computers were turned off and phones put away at home for a month. It's actually somewhat difficult to break the habit and very boring. But after about the third week you start to get used to it. By the end of the month when I could go back to "normal" I realized there was very little I actually wanted back. Mostly it was a few games I wanted to play and texting with friends on a regular basis. I lost all interest in social media after it (and that's still true) and I became very annoyed by the "ding" of the phone so I turned off all notifications and set it on DND full time (and that is also still true). Another thing that's I got out of it is I notice how much time everyone else is distracted by their phones. It's really crazy to see when you're not one of them.

yob28 5y ago

C19is20 5y ago
200% agree, and have done. Er....but, (posting on) hn!....oh, the irony.
- alexjplant 5y ago
  A news aggregator with a heavily-modded comments section frequented by interesting, educated people is hardly the same as a platform that drives engagement to attract advertisers by crassly exploiting our basest human desires. Social media platforms are basically systems that front conversion funnels with image macros and pictures of butts. Hacker News' goal is to inspire thoughtful discourse.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  I don't consider HN to be in the same category of most social media apps, though it has some of the danger zones. There's a Hacker News Demetricifier extension that helps a lot with "oooh, let's see how many upvoties my wise, intelligent comment got this time!" checking. I draw the line at "algorithmic, individualized feeds." To the best of my knowledge, HN state is global (to within whatever level of distributed consensus is required for the server infrastructure). If I look at HN, what I see in terms of front page state and comment order is what other people see, and what non-logged-in users see. It's not optimized for what the algorithm things I want to see - and that's the difference. There are still plenty of dark patterns one can integrate within this space, and I think Reddit is in a very grey zone (I no longer use it because I don't like what the new interface has done to technical text content and their pending IPO or whatever is certain to ruin what's left). The only real improvement I'd offer to HN is the ability to hide your own comment upvote/downvote comments as a check toggle somewhere, to demetricify it even more, while still maintaining the ability to moderate content. That comment scores other than your own is hidden is a great improvement. If there's a better line, I'd be interested in hearing it, but my personal point is "individualized, algorithmic feeds are evil."

winternett 5y ago

Different things work for different people. My main frustration is with the need for social media to drive dependency, addiction, and engagement. I am weary of content and UI controls that increasingly are overly monopolizing my time just to get to a point that is often totally a waste of time, and/or not funny. If social media algorithms were actually accurate in determining what I really like to watch, instead of just being dedicated towards steering me towards consumerism (that I'm not going to engage in anyway) my feelings would be different about it not being a useful friend anymore. I just use it in small doses when I'm bored or waiting for a project to render or build now and as places to collect/share my shower thoughts and funny things I find.

quocanh 5y ago

A bit off topic. I think it's fascinating when people say that meditation doesn't work for them but then discover the benefits of meditative states all on their own. That's what Quiet is anyway.

neuronic 5y ago
Meditation works for them but they have to overcome many obstacles before seeing even the slightest sliver of success. The brain is manipulated into a very agitated state due to constant engagement. 24/7-be-ready on your phone with 35 TikTok videos followed by WhatsApp messages and then 3 emails from your boss after 8pm. You have to overcome this shit to even just reach the starting point of people who tried meditation a few decades ago.
- quocanh 5y ago
  The tricky thing is how do you tell someone this? It's like being unable to do a pullup. You can try but if you can't even get one rep in then it just feels like wasted effort. The way that the author figured out on her own is a great way to learn how to meditate. If you can't do meditation, then don't. Try reading a book. Turning off your phone. Going for a walk. Just like how if you can't do a pullup, do light dumbbell curls or use the assisted weight machine. Do the easier thing first and then you'll build up strength. I suspect that if she were to try meditation today, then she would be ready. It's not so hard. We were all born with the Quiet.

DangitBobby 5y ago

I don't have very healthy relationship with online communications, and especially social media. Generally I find any disruption from deep thought, especially notifications from my phone, chat, and email, to be very aggravating or even stressful. If I'm really into my work, I will audibly grumble or say "what!" loudly (I work at home by myself so this doesn't bother anyone else). I have to carefully curate all notifications (and in the case of email, be diligent about unsubscribing from newsletters/marketing material I didn't sign up for) to minimize disruption for my own sanity. Even when I'm not working, a generic notification from my phone is stressful because the thought that it could be something that I have to deal with right now doesn't go away until I check it. Because of this, I have to blacklist any application that will happily send me useless notifications, which includes basically all social media apps, which means I don't know when someone is genuinely trying to engage with me on social media unless I visit all the time. As a result, I basically don't use social media. It's unfortunate to miss things that people only plan via indirect communication because of that, but it is what it is. I definitely feel like the ubiquity of planning and communication via e.g. Facebook means that I miss out on a lot of social events and interaction, so I must ironically conclude that I am alienated from most of my peers as a result of social media.

walrus01 5y ago
With android 8/9/10 it's totally possible to 100% disable all ability for a specific app to send any notifications at all. Not in the settings within the app, but at the operating system level. Not sure if same on iOS.
- neuronic 5y ago
  Since iOS 15 it has been very easy to just configure a Focus mode. I put all (and I mean all) apps and contacts in a silent-list during whichever time I feel like being left alone. Can still define certain contacts to reach you in case of emergency and so on. Love it - silencing the phone is the best thing ever. Starve the attention economy of attention and let all the bad actors like Facebook/Meta slowly perish.
- DangitBobby 5y ago

lifeisstillgood 5y ago

There is too much data out there for any human to manage. There is no algorithm that will be able to show the "correct" data (#) to any subset of people, whoever defines correct. So tommy simple mind we need automated help, and so need all data producers to make data available under common protocols. My pipe dreams are harder now there are no pipes anymore (#) this is a side fallacy of "management" - the idea that somehow senior management can wait for people to come to them with problems and they can decide on policy. You can't decide unless you are deep in the data. You cannot decide it's why we need experts and to trust decentralised decision making because we can trust the incentives. It's also why you should never trust any industry that has a weird business model (filmmaking, hedge funds, airlines) because we cannot correctly see the incentives from the outside. It's why regulators should have a one paragraph description of how the industry they regulate makes its money, posted at the top of all its stationary and web sites etc. It is I think the regulatory holy grail because it will freak everyone out.

mikewarot 5y ago

I've never owned a smart phone, for fear of becoming addicted to it. It seems that was a well founded notion. The two things I think they are useful for are Google Maps (for the Traffic, I know where I'm going), and getting phone numbers to place carry out orders. I don't constantly check email, I don't have a stream of interruptions when I'm away from the computer. Now all I have is the almost daily non-disable-able "amber alerts" that jar me out of my life, and the occasional junk call. When I do consume sites, I try very hard to avoid letting their algorithm decide what I see. With Facebook, for example you can append ?sk=h_chr to the site name, and it will show you thinks in reverse chronological order. I use subscriptions on Youtube, and only use "Home" when I'm bored and want to veg. I curate my sources as best I can.

Sosh101 5y ago
The things I would miss without a smartphone: - Maps - Digital tickets / proof-of-something - Payments / Transfers - Taxis
- blueflow 5y ago
  Things i use without a smartphone: - Maps - Tickets, Vaccination pass - Coins and Cash for Payments - Taxis I hoped for a moment you were kidding. Now i'm a bit sad.
  - Sosh101 5y ago
    Yes I use those things without a smartphone too. I'm just trying share what I think the core sticky features of smartphones are for me. I'd probably also add notes and calendar. I could do without communications other than voice and sms.
  - chrismcb 5y ago
    And yet it gets exceedingly difficult to do that. Lots of tickets online only. Paper maps are hard to find. Hard to call a taxis if you don't have a phone, and public pay phones rare. Not everyone takes cash. A smart phone is nice to have, but it doesn't mean you have to do social media on it

daniel-thompson 5y ago

"We need to talk about X" is a clickbait-y headline that I just never click on anymore. A one-line summary of the main idea would be much more interesting and useful.

neuronic 5y ago
But the attention economy demands otherwise. Most people will click it out of being dopamined into caring for 3 seconds.

thewarrior 5y ago

A post about the pitfalls of social media is a cliche at this point. None of these posts with very moralistic tones acknowledge that the ability to participate in a real time text and image adventure with millions of others is something that brings great power. Reading Hacker News has changed my life.I don't always agree with Paul Graham but in my opinion Hacker News is his greatest creation. It changed my outlook as an engineer and I went from being a no name engineer at an ordinary company to a senior engineer at a FANG. Someone I met on Facebook helped me on my journey. I found room mates on Facebook and they're now my friends. Certain obscure subreddits have given me fresh new perspectives and changed how I look at the world. I've been in Twitter DMs with really interesting people. Instagram is a way for a lot of creatives to find an audience whether its photography or art. The feedback mechanisms and publicity have led to some people getting insanely good. I'm still trying to understand TikTok but perhaps I'm getting too old to rewire my brain for it. I do realize how this is all a little too much for my brain that evolved to forage berries and roam jungles. Our brains were not designed to handle the volume and speed. A lot of it is undoubtedly useful but social interactions often have an adversarial element to them. In real life the slower speed and repeated interactions allows us to stay on top of it. Keeping up with all of this imposes a cognitive load. I have started meditating and trying not to respond in anger or indignation to everything I see online. What meditation gives us is the idea of "enough". Everything that we've ever known and more people than have ever lived are a tap or swipe away. We are miniscule in comparison and should try and adjust our expectations for what we hope to accomplish. I use social media knowing my limitations. A tiny brain trying to stay afloat in a sea of information and cyber predators. I'll never comprehend more than a fraction of my filter bubble or keep up with the discourse as it ricochets around the world 10 times before I see it. The next generation will be able to use the highly plastic brains of their childhood to mould themselves to survive and even thrive in this brave new world. I am not going to try and stop them from mastering this new reality. I would educate them about the pitfalls and the need for moderation. I am not going to stop using social media. My life would be poorer for it. The problem is not social media. The problem is that technology has outrun our brains.

localhost 5y ago

News Feed Eradicator is a must-have for all my computers [1] It eliminates the algorithmic feed, but still lets you use the site to look up individual feeds and links to specific posts still continue to work. For me, it helps to eliminate the scrolling temptation. [1] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicator/fjcldmjmjhkklehbacihaiopjklihlgg?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/news-feed-eradicat...

dredmorbius 5y ago

Can we add COWA to the lexicon of FOMO? Consciousness of Wasting Attention.

Falkon1313 5y ago

I think the key is fatigue. You get so many calls from spammers and scammers, you turn off the ringer and just let things go to voice mail. Nobody answers their phone these days unless someone pre-arranges a call or messages first and then escalates it to a voice call. Phone fatigue. So much spam and ham in e-mail that you turn off notifications and just occasionally go check your e-mail to find the 4 things of interest and delete the other 7000. Then wonder if maybe you overlooked and deleted an important one. E-mail fatigue. You get so much junk mail, medical bills that say 'this is not a bill', mailings from places where you've selected e-statements and e-billing only yet they keep mailing - that eventually you stop bothering and it all just piles up on the counter. Until one day you go through it all, find a refund check from the IRS, and rush out to deposit it before it goes stale. Junk mail fatigue. You go to the store to get X, but there are 47 varieties of X to choose from so you end up deciding you don't want it that bad after all and don't end up getting it. Decision fatigue. The description of social media fatigue fits right in. With all that rapid attention switching, it gets hard to focus on anything for any length of time. Your mind starts craving a feed of constant stimulus, but it's exhausting. Attention fatigue. The idea of Quiet with a capital Q is a good way to relax and recover from all that fatigue. My favorite is to take an actual physical book outside into nature and read for awhile, where the only distractions are birds, chipmunks, and butterflies. Unfortunately that doesn't work so well during winter when it's below freezing out, but at least there's still bathtime.

bruce511 5y ago
What is this "mail" you speak of? And what is a "check"?
openfuture 5y ago
Yep, this is the way we will get some human rights back, people will demand less cognitive taxation.
- laurent92 5y ago
  The way I imagine upmost luxury, is when you are isolated from brands. When going from Windows to Linux to Mac in 2010, I noticed how there were much fewer popups and attention grabbers (how it has changed since…). Same when going to an upmarket supermarket compared to Carrefour. Rich people are isolated from shopping itself. Imagine how available their minds are!