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Your original comment was speaking very broadly and not about this specific accident. I responded broadly and not about the specific accident. Your response w

by slg 5y ago

Your original comment was speaking very broadly and not about this specific accident. I responded broadly and not about the specific accident. Your response was only about this accident and ignored my broader point. Yes, this accident is a problem that Tesla needs to work to fix. But no system is going to ever be flawless and I would bet many humans and other manufacturer emergency braking systems would fail to avoid this accident. In the meantime everyone, from Tesla fanboys to Tesla critics, should be mindful about how they talk about these things because confusion is dangerous regardless of its source.

dragontamer 5y ago
I'm speaking broadly about this specific situation. https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf... Which is Tesla crashing into stopped trucks in the middle of the road. The fact is, we have a pattern here, and it is now documented. As sad as it is, this Twitter-thread isn't "news". The NHTSA opened an investigation last year, but you know how slowly the government works. Everyone has known this. There is a pattern here about Tesla's emergency braking, be it on the default package, the 2015-era Autopilot for $5000, or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. The emergency braking simply doesn't work (https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-autonomous-braking-test-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-aut...).
- slg 5y ago
  > or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. Are you just trolling with that comment. You are making the same mistake again that I corrected you on in your first comment. Autopilot is free with the car. Emergency braking systems are not foolproof. Tesla is not a market leader in that category, but these systems from other manufactures also fail in similar situations[1]. [1] - https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    I don't see the distinction. Both FSD and Autopilot would have crashed into this truck at full speed. We both know they're on the same sensor suite on largely the same technology. "FSD" may have more software and "AI" behind it, but the fundamental "is a stopped car in front of me" logic is the same neural-network training through the Dojo-supercomputer or whatever else Tesla wants to talk about. Its just a software switch that's locked behind a $10,000 paywall, nothing more. But the customer, and the people involved in crashes, don't care about the names of supercomputers, the different features of the car, or whether or not its in Beta or not. -------------- Can Tesla's sensor suite + computer see a stopped car in front of it? Well... no. It can't. Not only does this case prove it, so have many other cases. That's why there's an NHTSA probe on this very issue. Again, here's the link: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf...
    - slg 5y ago
      Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. I care much less about a singular accident than I do about trying to help prevent future accidents by clearing up the confusion. You are continuing to add to that confusion, seemingly intentionally by continuing to blur the lines that I have already clarified in previous comments. You already admitted that a product being on the market for years would lead to a consumer being more confident in it. By telling people that FSD has been tested for years on public roads rather than months your criticism is counterintuitively also contributing to a false confidence in the technology.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        > Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. But we have an NHTSA complaint documenting 11 other accidents of this form. That is, a stopped car in front of a Tesla that was provably on Autopilot. And then the Tesla crashes into the stopped car (most commonly: emergency vehicles like Firetrucks or Police cars). EDIT: These other examples from NHTSA were in broad-daylight, with flashing lights, at night, and a variety of different situations. So something is definitely wrong here. And who knows about all the other situations where a crash was going to happen but the driver took emergency action and saved the day. ----- This accident, the one in the twitter post, as well as the 11 other documented cases in the NHTSA investigation, prove that there's a systemic problem with the technology. There are probably other accidents too where the emergency braking should have worked but aren't documented yet. ------ This is no longer a Rusell's Teapot scenario. We've got 12-examples (11 from the NHTSA complaint, and +1 from this Twitter thread / Twitter video). We've got the examples, live on camera. We can absolutely say without a doubt that Teslas have difficulty in this case.

by slg 5y ago

dragontamer 5y ago

I'm speaking broadly about this specific situation. https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf... Which is Tesla crashing into stopped trucks in the middle of the road. The fact is, we have a pattern here, and it is now documented. As sad as it is, this Twitter-thread isn't "news". The NHTSA opened an investigation last year, but you know how slowly the government works. Everyone has known this. There is a pattern here about Tesla's emergency braking, be it on the default package, the 2015-era Autopilot for $5000, or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. The emergency braking simply doesn't work (https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-autonomous-braking-test-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-aut...).

slg 5y ago
> or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. Are you just trolling with that comment. You are making the same mistake again that I corrected you on in your first comment. Autopilot is free with the car. Emergency braking systems are not foolproof. Tesla is not a market leader in that category, but these systems from other manufactures also fail in similar situations[1]. [1] - https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...
- dragontamer 5y ago
  I don't see the distinction. Both FSD and Autopilot would have crashed into this truck at full speed. We both know they're on the same sensor suite on largely the same technology. "FSD" may have more software and "AI" behind it, but the fundamental "is a stopped car in front of me" logic is the same neural-network training through the Dojo-supercomputer or whatever else Tesla wants to talk about. Its just a software switch that's locked behind a $10,000 paywall, nothing more. But the customer, and the people involved in crashes, don't care about the names of supercomputers, the different features of the car, or whether or not its in Beta or not. -------------- Can Tesla's sensor suite + computer see a stopped car in front of it? Well... no. It can't. Not only does this case prove it, so have many other cases. That's why there's an NHTSA probe on this very issue. Again, here's the link: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf...
  - slg 5y ago
    Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. I care much less about a singular accident than I do about trying to help prevent future accidents by clearing up the confusion. You are continuing to add to that confusion, seemingly intentionally by continuing to blur the lines that I have already clarified in previous comments. You already admitted that a product being on the market for years would lead to a consumer being more confident in it. By telling people that FSD has been tested for years on public roads rather than months your criticism is counterintuitively also contributing to a false confidence in the technology.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. But we have an NHTSA complaint documenting 11 other accidents of this form. That is, a stopped car in front of a Tesla that was provably on Autopilot. And then the Tesla crashes into the stopped car (most commonly: emergency vehicles like Firetrucks or Police cars). EDIT: These other examples from NHTSA were in broad-daylight, with flashing lights, at night, and a variety of different situations. So something is definitely wrong here. And who knows about all the other situations where a crash was going to happen but the driver took emergency action and saved the day. ----- This accident, the one in the twitter post, as well as the 11 other documented cases in the NHTSA investigation, prove that there's a systemic problem with the technology. There are probably other accidents too where the emergency braking should have worked but aren't documented yet. ------ This is no longer a Rusell's Teapot scenario. We've got 12-examples (11 from the NHTSA complaint, and +1 from this Twitter thread / Twitter video). We've got the examples, live on camera. We can absolutely say without a doubt that Teslas have difficulty in this case.