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It isn't just Tesla that is leading to confusion here. For example, both you and the comment you are responding to treat Autopilot and Full Self Driving as inte

by slg 5y ago

It isn't just Tesla that is leading to confusion here. For example, both you and the comment you are responding to treat Autopilot and Full Self Driving as interchangeable when they are distinct features. Autopilot has been on cars for years, has driven multiple billion miles, and now comes free with every Tesla. In reality it is just lane and traffic aware cruise control which numerous cars come with today. Full Self Driving doesn't have near the track record, is still in beta (and maybe should still be in alpha), and has that 5 figure price tag you mentioned. When you blur the lines between the two, it also results in people thinking Autopilot is more capable than it is or that Full Self Driving is safer than it is.

dragontamer 5y ago
Not crashing into Firetrucks is an emergency-brake assist problem. This isn't a "beta" part of Tesla's suite. I'd rather not use the crap marketing terms of Tesla. They're clearly misleading and just propaganda. You and I know that its emergency braking. It doesn't matter if its on an intelligent-cruise control / lane assist mode, or if its in the hands of a driver. Emergency braking is supposed to kick in and work in these cases
- slg 5y ago
  Your original comment was speaking very broadly and not about this specific accident. I responded broadly and not about the specific accident. Your response was only about this accident and ignored my broader point. Yes, this accident is a problem that Tesla needs to work to fix. But no system is going to ever be flawless and I would bet many humans and other manufacturer emergency braking systems would fail to avoid this accident. In the meantime everyone, from Tesla fanboys to Tesla critics, should be mindful about how they talk about these things because confusion is dangerous regardless of its source.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    I'm speaking broadly about this specific situation. https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf... Which is Tesla crashing into stopped trucks in the middle of the road. The fact is, we have a pattern here, and it is now documented. As sad as it is, this Twitter-thread isn't "news". The NHTSA opened an investigation last year, but you know how slowly the government works. Everyone has known this. There is a pattern here about Tesla's emergency braking, be it on the default package, the 2015-era Autopilot for $5000, or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. The emergency braking simply doesn't work (https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-autonomous-braking-test-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-aut...).
    - slg 5y ago
      > or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. Are you just trolling with that comment. You are making the same mistake again that I corrected you on in your first comment. Autopilot is free with the car. Emergency braking systems are not foolproof. Tesla is not a market leader in that category, but these systems from other manufactures also fail in similar situations[1]. [1] - https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        I don't see the distinction. Both FSD and Autopilot would have crashed into this truck at full speed. We both know they're on the same sensor suite on largely the same technology. "FSD" may have more software and "AI" behind it, but the fundamental "is a stopped car in front of me" logic is the same neural-network training through the Dojo-supercomputer or whatever else Tesla wants to talk about. Its just a software switch that's locked behind a $10,000 paywall, nothing more. But the customer, and the people involved in crashes, don't care about the names of supercomputers, the different features of the car, or whether or not its in Beta or not. -------------- Can Tesla's sensor suite + computer see a stopped car in front of it? Well... no. It can't. Not only does this case prove it, so have many other cases. That's why there's an NHTSA probe on this very issue. Again, here's the link: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf...
        slg 5y ago
        Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. I care much less about a singular accident than I do about trying to help prevent future accidents by clearing up the confusion. You are continuing to add to that confusion, seemingly intentionally by continuing to blur the lines that I have already clarified in previous comments. You already admitted that a product being on the market for years would lead to a consumer being more confident in it. By telling people that FSD has been tested for years on public roads rather than months your criticism is counterintuitively also contributing to a false confidence in the technology.
yumraj 5y ago
> Autopilot has been on cars for years Autopilot has not been on cars for years, Adaptive cruise control has been. Moreover, while I’ll accept that my comment above confuses between them, I’ll argue its naming it as “ Autipilot” is what is at fault here since people overestimate its capabilities.
- slg 5y ago
  I am neither going to defend the feature's name or get into a debate about it. I am simply pointing out that the confusion does not have one single source like you originally implied.
- noxer 5y ago
  Autopilot may be a marketing name and people can voice their opinion about it as not being appropriate or whatever but where did the notion come from that "Autopilot" means it works on its own without human? Autopilot is a term most commonly used in aircraft and that's where almost everyone has head from it before. At the same time almost everyone should be fully aware that aircraft on autopilot do in fact need at least one human pilot. Almost all aircraft inevitably crash if left on autopilot with no further human interaction. So where does this idea come from that the word "autopilot" somehow misleads people into believing that it does not require a human.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    Most people aren’t pilots, most people have never flown an aircraft, most people have no idea how actual autopilot works. I bet most people think that autopilot is something you turn on while in air and makes the airplane fly on course without further inputs from the pilot. I bet for most people autopilot means computer does driving.
    - noxer 5y ago
      You dont have to be pilot or even remotely interested in aircraft to know the term. Its like "Blackbox" everyone with basic education has heard about it. >I bet for most people autopilot means computer does driving. That is the claim but there is no evidence at all. Everyone knows there is a pilot in almost every aircraft and that autopilot is just a computer that takes work away. If it would fly alone there would be no pilot. There should be no people with a driver license who think autopilot means no human needed. Its completely absurd. That word never meant that and its not people misinterpreting the word that sleep in their cars and crash it. These people are not mislead by a word they are just irresponsible and fully aware of it or drunk.
ModernMech 5y ago
People being confused by Tesla's confusing marketing is Tesla's fault.
- slg 5y ago
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... This is a marketing page, directly from Tesla in 2016. It is clearly misleading and/or lying in several ways, and Tesla has yet to update their direct marketing on their direct website. ------ Tweets directly sent by the CEO: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280?lang=... Are also marketing. And this was a lie of course, "coast to coast FSD" never happened, not in 2017, and probably never. It doesn't seem like the technology is capable of seeing stopped cars in front of it (let alone of a coast-to-coast drive without disengagements).
    - slg 5y ago
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        I think you're being pedantic about inane details. The CEO participates in marketing, on Twitter, on Facebook. Tesla markets on their website, and through their employees and service centers. There are clearly a ton of Tesla influencers who are also being paid to shill the car and their features online (much like any other car company, social media shilling strategies are very effective). There are many, many web-based marketing strategies Tesla has, from referral links, to search-engine-optimization, to blogging, to Youtube videos, etc. etc. That Tesla doesn't participate in the traditional TV-ad marketing is a bit of a non-sequitur. They clearly have a huge online presence and leverage that to influence their buyers. If you've ever done SEO before, you'd clearly see how Tesla (and Elon Musk) optimize for SEO. Yeah, Musk says that they don't do marketing. But since when was Musk a trustworthy source of information? Think for a bit.

by slg 5y ago

dragontamer 5y ago

Not crashing into Firetrucks is an emergency-brake assist problem. This isn't a "beta" part of Tesla's suite. I'd rather not use the crap marketing terms of Tesla. They're clearly misleading and just propaganda. You and I know that its emergency braking. It doesn't matter if its on an intelligent-cruise control / lane assist mode, or if its in the hands of a driver. Emergency braking is supposed to kick in and work in these cases

slg 5y ago
Your original comment was speaking very broadly and not about this specific accident. I responded broadly and not about the specific accident. Your response was only about this accident and ignored my broader point. Yes, this accident is a problem that Tesla needs to work to fix. But no system is going to ever be flawless and I would bet many humans and other manufacturer emergency braking systems would fail to avoid this accident. In the meantime everyone, from Tesla fanboys to Tesla critics, should be mindful about how they talk about these things because confusion is dangerous regardless of its source.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  I'm speaking broadly about this specific situation. https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf... Which is Tesla crashing into stopped trucks in the middle of the road. The fact is, we have a pattern here, and it is now documented. As sad as it is, this Twitter-thread isn't "news". The NHTSA opened an investigation last year, but you know how slowly the government works. Everyone has known this. There is a pattern here about Tesla's emergency braking, be it on the default package, the 2015-era Autopilot for $5000, or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. The emergency braking simply doesn't work (https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-autonomous-braking-test-in-china/ https://www.carscoops.com/2020/09/tesla-model-3-fails-an-aut...).
  - slg 5y ago
    > or the modern 2021-era Autopilot for $10,000. Are you just trolling with that comment. You are making the same mistake again that I corrected you on in your first comment. Autopilot is free with the car. Emergency braking systems are not foolproof. Tesla is not a market leader in that category, but these systems from other manufactures also fail in similar situations[1]. [1] - https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu...
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      I don't see the distinction. Both FSD and Autopilot would have crashed into this truck at full speed. We both know they're on the same sensor suite on largely the same technology. "FSD" may have more software and "AI" behind it, but the fundamental "is a stopped car in front of me" logic is the same neural-network training through the Dojo-supercomputer or whatever else Tesla wants to talk about. Its just a software switch that's locked behind a $10,000 paywall, nothing more. But the customer, and the people involved in crashes, don't care about the names of supercomputers, the different features of the car, or whether or not its in Beta or not. -------------- Can Tesla's sensor suite + computer see a stopped car in front of it? Well... no. It can't. Not only does this case prove it, so have many other cases. That's why there's an NHTSA probe on this very issue. Again, here's the link: https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-safety-defect-investigation-tesla-autopilot-crashes-a6996819019/ https://www.consumerreports.org/autonomous-driving/nhtsa-saf...
      - slg 5y ago
        Once again, I am speaking generally and not about this specific accident. We have no idea how any other person or car would perform in this exact situation and I don't see much value in speculating. I care much less about a singular accident than I do about trying to help prevent future accidents by clearing up the confusion. You are continuing to add to that confusion, seemingly intentionally by continuing to blur the lines that I have already clarified in previous comments. You already admitted that a product being on the market for years would lead to a consumer being more confident in it. By telling people that FSD has been tested for years on public roads rather than months your criticism is counterintuitively also contributing to a false confidence in the technology.

yumraj 5y ago

> Autopilot has been on cars for years Autopilot has not been on cars for years, Adaptive cruise control has been. Moreover, while I’ll accept that my comment above confuses between them, I’ll argue its naming it as “ Autipilot” is what is at fault here since people overestimate its capabilities.

slg 5y ago
I am neither going to defend the feature's name or get into a debate about it. I am simply pointing out that the confusion does not have one single source like you originally implied.
noxer 5y ago
Autopilot may be a marketing name and people can voice their opinion about it as not being appropriate or whatever but where did the notion come from that "Autopilot" means it works on its own without human? Autopilot is a term most commonly used in aircraft and that's where almost everyone has head from it before. At the same time almost everyone should be fully aware that aircraft on autopilot do in fact need at least one human pilot. Almost all aircraft inevitably crash if left on autopilot with no further human interaction. So where does this idea come from that the word "autopilot" somehow misleads people into believing that it does not require a human.
- runarberg 5y ago
  Most people aren’t pilots, most people have never flown an aircraft, most people have no idea how actual autopilot works. I bet most people think that autopilot is something you turn on while in air and makes the airplane fly on course without further inputs from the pilot. I bet for most people autopilot means computer does driving.
  - noxer 5y ago
    You dont have to be pilot or even remotely interested in aircraft to know the term. Its like "Blackbox" everyone with basic education has heard about it. >I bet for most people autopilot means computer does driving. That is the claim but there is no evidence at all. Everyone knows there is a pilot in almost every aircraft and that autopilot is just a computer that takes work away. If it would fly alone there would be no pilot. There should be no people with a driver license who think autopilot means no human needed. Its completely absurd. That word never meant that and its not people misinterpreting the word that sleep in their cars and crash it. These people are not mislead by a word they are just irresponsible and fully aware of it or drunk.

ModernMech 5y ago

People being confused by Tesla's confusing marketing is Tesla's fault.

slg 5y ago
- dragontamer 5y ago
  https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now-have-full-self-driving-hardware https://www.tesla.com/blog/all-tesla-cars-being-produced-now... This is a marketing page, directly from Tesla in 2016. It is clearly misleading and/or lying in several ways, and Tesla has yet to update their direct marketing on their direct website. ------ Tweets directly sent by the CEO: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280?lang=en https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/866482406160609280?lang=... Are also marketing. And this was a lie of course, "coast to coast FSD" never happened, not in 2017, and probably never. It doesn't seem like the technology is capable of seeing stopped cars in front of it (let alone of a coast-to-coast drive without disengagements).
  - slg 5y ago
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      I think you're being pedantic about inane details. The CEO participates in marketing, on Twitter, on Facebook. Tesla markets on their website, and through their employees and service centers. There are clearly a ton of Tesla influencers who are also being paid to shill the car and their features online (much like any other car company, social media shilling strategies are very effective). There are many, many web-based marketing strategies Tesla has, from referral links, to search-engine-optimization, to blogging, to Youtube videos, etc. etc. That Tesla doesn't participate in the traditional TV-ad marketing is a bit of a non-sequitur. They clearly have a huge online presence and leverage that to influence their buyers. If you've ever done SEO before, you'd clearly see how Tesla (and Elon Musk) optimize for SEO. Yeah, Musk says that they don't do marketing. But since when was Musk a trustworthy source of information? Think for a bit.