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>The US needs fabs on-shore. Intel, GlobalFoundries, TSMC and Samsung all have fabs in the US. TSMC have a fab at WA and building one in AZ. Samsung have a f

>The US needs fabs on-shore. Intel, GlobalFoundries, TSMC and Samsung all have fabs in the US. TSMC have a fab at WA and building one in AZ. Samsung have a fab at TX US have plenty

Something1234 5y ago
Yeah except most of them are in water scarce region. Texas and Arizona are going to be in trouble in the next 10 to 15 years WRT water supply, the mighty Colorado isn't delivering enough. The fossil aquifers are being depleted.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  This is an interesting article about that http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2020/ph240/multani2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2020/ph240/multani2/
- qchris 5y ago
  This is something I've wondered about myself. Like, if I was going to be building a foundry in North America that is supposed to operate 24/7 producing silicon for potentially many decades and required billions of dollars of ongoing investment, I'd probably try to pick somewhere in the upper Midwest like Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, or even Missouri. You might potentially get a little lake weather depending on where you pick, but the big risks like drought, earthquakes, wildfires, hurricanes, floods, and tornadoes would be much less likely, there's not exactly a shortage of space, and there's a number of mid-sized cities and some elite universities in the region that could both help attract and keep talent happy. Are the tax credits in AZ really that much more attractive?
  - bee_rider 5y ago
    I suspect it is a tradeoff between "cheap real estate" and "nearby California." But if I were in charge, I'd try to put some fabs as close to the Northeast megalopolis as possible while still being cheap. So probably like... Pennsylvania? Upstate NY? Hell, why not Maine? Better weather in the NE (which isn't much of a statement, Arizona is barely human habitable) and it might be interesting to experiment with some alternative tech culture to Silicon Valley's (more down to Earth, IMO).
- renewiltord 5y ago
  This is not a significant risk factor. It’s the naïve model: “they use water, therefore they will be in trouble if water becomes scarce”. However through recycling to reuse, the net use is low enough to not be a significant risk factor. Think about it. They’re building a massive plant. This is a basic input factor. What model of the world reconciles the idea that these guys are very good at making semiconductors for decades but unable to model changes in the input factors over that period? Does that model sound like the highest probability model to explain their behavior?
  - MangoCoffee 5y ago
    the water talking point is never going to die. Taiwan doesn't have enough water for all its industry and semis industry taking up the most water yet Taiwan managed and TSMC keep building new fab in Taiwan. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-keep-building-foundries-in-the-arizona-desert/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k... "Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed." reclaim the water is the key
  - ahartmetz 5y ago
    > However through recycling to reuse Exactly! Fabs use lots of hazardous chemicals, it's not like they can just dump the water contaminated with these into the next river. And if they clean it, why not clean it a little more and reuse it?
- MangoCoffee 5y ago
  https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-keep-building-foundries-in-the-arizona-desert/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k... "Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed." "What Arizona lacks in water, it makes up for with overall stability—the state is very seismically stable and does not suffer from hurricanes, with low risks of other natural disasters such as tornadoes to boot. Building chip fabs without such guarantees is possible—for example, Intel has a large presence in Oregon—but chip fabricators on the West Coast must take extreme isolation measures, which Arizona plants don't require."
- jhgb 5y ago
  I think the interesting question is for what alternative purpose you could use that water for in Texas or Arizona. While processing a wafer might require quite a bit of water, it is also the case that the economic value of that finished wafer is very substantial. How comparable are other industries in the region when it comes to dollars generated per cubic meter of water consumed?
UncleOxidant 5y ago
The US needs more fabs in more diverse geographical locations. AZ seems like a poor choice given the water situation. TX may have similar issues. Maybe some fabs in Canada would also be a good idea?
- avs733 5y ago
  As I understand it, the Fabs in AZ are a net positive for the water situation there. They are incredibly responsible users (especially compared to agriculture) The major reason for them being in AZ is constant(ish) weather, cheap land, workforce, and cheap power.

>The US needs fabs on-shore. Intel, GlobalFoundries, TSMC and Samsung all have fabs in the US. TSMC have a fab at WA and building one in AZ. Samsung have a fab at TX US have plenty

Something1234 5y ago

Yeah except most of them are in water scarce region. Texas and Arizona are going to be in trouble in the next 10 to 15 years WRT water supply, the mighty Colorado isn't delivering enough. The fossil aquifers are being depleted.

JaimeThompson 5y ago
This is an interesting article about that http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2020/ph240/multani2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2020/ph240/multani2/
qchris 5y ago
This is something I've wondered about myself. Like, if I was going to be building a foundry in North America that is supposed to operate 24/7 producing silicon for potentially many decades and required billions of dollars of ongoing investment, I'd probably try to pick somewhere in the upper Midwest like Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, or even Missouri. You might potentially get a little lake weather depending on where you pick, but the big risks like drought, earthquakes, wildfires, hurricanes, floods, and tornadoes would be much less likely, there's not exactly a shortage of space, and there's a number of mid-sized cities and some elite universities in the region that could both help attract and keep talent happy. Are the tax credits in AZ really that much more attractive?
- bee_rider 5y ago
  I suspect it is a tradeoff between "cheap real estate" and "nearby California." But if I were in charge, I'd try to put some fabs as close to the Northeast megalopolis as possible while still being cheap. So probably like... Pennsylvania? Upstate NY? Hell, why not Maine? Better weather in the NE (which isn't much of a statement, Arizona is barely human habitable) and it might be interesting to experiment with some alternative tech culture to Silicon Valley's (more down to Earth, IMO).
renewiltord 5y ago
This is not a significant risk factor. It’s the naïve model: “they use water, therefore they will be in trouble if water becomes scarce”. However through recycling to reuse, the net use is low enough to not be a significant risk factor. Think about it. They’re building a massive plant. This is a basic input factor. What model of the world reconciles the idea that these guys are very good at making semiconductors for decades but unable to model changes in the input factors over that period? Does that model sound like the highest probability model to explain their behavior?
- MangoCoffee 5y ago
  the water talking point is never going to die. Taiwan doesn't have enough water for all its industry and semis industry taking up the most water yet Taiwan managed and TSMC keep building new fab in Taiwan. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-keep-building-foundries-in-the-arizona-desert/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k... "Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed." reclaim the water is the key
- ahartmetz 5y ago
  > However through recycling to reuse Exactly! Fabs use lots of hazardous chemicals, it's not like they can just dump the water contaminated with these into the next river. And if they clean it, why not clean it a little more and reuse it?
MangoCoffee 5y ago
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-keep-building-foundries-in-the-arizona-desert/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/why-do-chip-makers-k... "Counterintuitively, the famously thirsty industry can even improve the local water supply due to a focus on reclamation and purification—Intel has funded 15 water restoration projects in the Grand Canyon State with a goal of restoring 937 million gallons per year, and it expects to reach net positive water use once the projects are completed." "What Arizona lacks in water, it makes up for with overall stability—the state is very seismically stable and does not suffer from hurricanes, with low risks of other natural disasters such as tornadoes to boot. Building chip fabs without such guarantees is possible—for example, Intel has a large presence in Oregon—but chip fabricators on the West Coast must take extreme isolation measures, which Arizona plants don't require."
jhgb 5y ago
I think the interesting question is for what alternative purpose you could use that water for in Texas or Arizona. While processing a wafer might require quite a bit of water, it is also the case that the economic value of that finished wafer is very substantial. How comparable are other industries in the region when it comes to dollars generated per cubic meter of water consumed?

UncleOxidant 5y ago

The US needs more fabs in more diverse geographical locations. AZ seems like a poor choice given the water situation. TX may have similar issues. Maybe some fabs in Canada would also be a good idea?

avs733 5y ago
As I understand it, the Fabs in AZ are a net positive for the water situation there. They are incredibly responsible users (especially compared to agriculture) The major reason for them being in AZ is constant(ish) weather, cheap land, workforce, and cheap power.