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A healthy-as-a-horse family friend caught Covid (unvaccinated because he didn’t believe Covid was a real thing), no risk factors other than being in his 50s, an

A healthy-as-a-horse family friend caught Covid (unvaccinated because he didn’t believe Covid was a real thing), no risk factors other than being in his 50s, and died on a ventilator. Probably would have died anyway, but in his case he died because the ICU staff was overworked during a local wave and his vent tube clogged and no one noticed. Now his (also anti-vaccine) widow is considering suing the hospital for malpractice. Now, obviously the above is anecdata, but there’s a real chain of causality from the standpoint that if my friend had been vaccinated, this probably wouldn’t have happened. If the people within his immediate social circle were vaccinated, this might not have happened. If his community at large was vaccinated, not only would he be less likely to catch it, he would be less likely to end up in the hospital, and even in the hospital, he would have received more attentive care. You can’t just hand wave away the societal impact of having a novel virus circulating through the community. And even if you want to shoulder the risk yourself, what about the impact your contribution to spread has on other people? Where’s your obligation to your community at large? I met another person, friend of a friend, last week, who can barely speak above a whisper. She caught Covid (runner, vaccinated), and ended up with lung damage. It was two months before she could walk around without being winded. She did everything right, and still ended up severely harmed by Covid. Now, one can turn around and say, “well, look, the vaccines were pointless!”, but obviously that’s ridiculous- it’s just the law of large numbers. The data clearly shows that if you are vaccinated, you are less likely to get sick, end up in the hospital , and die of Covid. If everyone around you is vaccinated, it’s less likely you’ll need to depend on the vaccine to make the odds work out in your favor. There’s all kinds of aspects of life where we collectively decide to look out for each other for the benefit of all. It’s frankly shocking that so much death and pain is handwaved away as “getting old now”, and even more so that it’s political. Edit: I realize there’s no changing anyones mind here, so I could have saved my breath. But I think it’s worth calling out that the arguments put forth in the parent post are just ridiculous, and if we applied the same logic to drunk driving, or smallpox, or personal property rights, people would think the argument was ludicrous.

listless 5y ago
The important point you make is that he was 50s and in good health. That should alarm everyone. People who are 50s and in good health should NOT be dying on vents. Why anyone over 40 would refuse vaccination is a pure tragedy and nothing but. It breaks my heart to hear these stories.
zerocount 5y ago
You and I stand on opposite sides of the fence. Neither one of us will change the other's mind. I also will respect your view points, but I won't back down on personal choice. That's the main issue with the pandemic right now. My ex-wife knows two people who've died after taking the vaccine. One at the 2 week mark and the other the day after. She also knows a body builder, in excellent condition, who ended up on a ventilator from Covid. He was in that condition for months and has less than half of his lung capacity now. Those two would be alive if not pressured or forced to take the vaccine. And that is one category of people (dead from vaccine) that gets hand waived by the numbers, as if those people meant nothing. We all have stories... I had Covid and recovered nicely at 51 years old, as did my ex-wife at 50. So there's another counter story. And I never said or advocated that vaccines are pointless. They absolutely work for the purposes of reducing severe illness and chance of death. I encourage people who think they're in a high risk category to get vaccinated, but not everyone needs it. But that's what's being pushed right now because if we can just vaccinate everyone, it will effectively go away. No, it won't. The vaccinated get Covid and spread it to one another because they don't get sick enough to stay home. I didn't have the energy to go any where. I had to get in bed and nap every two hours. Why can't you show the data and allow everyone to make a choice? If you want to talk numbers, it's very rare that you'll end up on a ventilator or in the hospital from Covid. And don't talk to me about the collective good. People don't give a shit about me or you. I get one chance at life and I'm making choices for me, not for strangers. And I won't blame anyone else for doing the same thing. My condolences to the loved ones of all who've died from Covid and the vaccine. I encourage all to make their choices without consideration of outside influence. It is your one life and you must do what you think is best. It's better to die free than live in collective chains. Good luck and godspeed.
- mattzito 5y ago
  I eagerly await our world where my personal choice allows me to drive drunk down your street, because people don’t give a shit about me or you, and I get one chance at life and I’m making choices for me, not for strangers. Likewise, I’m going to stop allowing minorities to live in my apartment building - I’m making choices for me, after all, not for strangers. Let’s get rid of ALL vaccine mandates for the same reason, I’m sure you’d agree that we would be better off if everyone got to decide whether they got a measles shot or not (btw, measles deaths are on the rise for this exact reason). Maybe we shouldn’t have mandated polio vaccines? I eagerly await the removal of consumer protection laws, because I can make the decision for myself about what is safe for me. No more hand washing for restaurant staff - that’s an infringement on their personal choices. Ditto with food storage guidelines - refrigeration is expensive. Gotta do what I think is best “Better to die free than live in collective chains.” Ridiculous argument, and one that AGAIN if we made about basically any other societal rule that is for the collective good, we would be laughed out of the room. After 800k deaths in America alone, for sure, personal “freedom” stands above everyone else’s welfare.

listless 5y ago

The important point you make is that he was 50s and in good health. That should alarm everyone. People who are 50s and in good health should NOT be dying on vents. Why anyone over 40 would refuse vaccination is a pure tragedy and nothing but. It breaks my heart to hear these stories.

zerocount 5y ago

You and I stand on opposite sides of the fence. Neither one of us will change the other's mind. I also will respect your view points, but I won't back down on personal choice. That's the main issue with the pandemic right now. My ex-wife knows two people who've died after taking the vaccine. One at the 2 week mark and the other the day after. She also knows a body builder, in excellent condition, who ended up on a ventilator from Covid. He was in that condition for months and has less than half of his lung capacity now. Those two would be alive if not pressured or forced to take the vaccine. And that is one category of people (dead from vaccine) that gets hand waived by the numbers, as if those people meant nothing. We all have stories... I had Covid and recovered nicely at 51 years old, as did my ex-wife at 50. So there's another counter story. And I never said or advocated that vaccines are pointless. They absolutely work for the purposes of reducing severe illness and chance of death. I encourage people who think they're in a high risk category to get vaccinated, but not everyone needs it. But that's what's being pushed right now because if we can just vaccinate everyone, it will effectively go away. No, it won't. The vaccinated get Covid and spread it to one another because they don't get sick enough to stay home. I didn't have the energy to go any where. I had to get in bed and nap every two hours. Why can't you show the data and allow everyone to make a choice? If you want to talk numbers, it's very rare that you'll end up on a ventilator or in the hospital from Covid. And don't talk to me about the collective good. People don't give a shit about me or you. I get one chance at life and I'm making choices for me, not for strangers. And I won't blame anyone else for doing the same thing. My condolences to the loved ones of all who've died from Covid and the vaccine. I encourage all to make their choices without consideration of outside influence. It is your one life and you must do what you think is best. It's better to die free than live in collective chains. Good luck and godspeed.

mattzito 5y ago
I eagerly await our world where my personal choice allows me to drive drunk down your street, because people don’t give a shit about me or you, and I get one chance at life and I’m making choices for me, not for strangers. Likewise, I’m going to stop allowing minorities to live in my apartment building - I’m making choices for me, after all, not for strangers. Let’s get rid of ALL vaccine mandates for the same reason, I’m sure you’d agree that we would be better off if everyone got to decide whether they got a measles shot or not (btw, measles deaths are on the rise for this exact reason). Maybe we shouldn’t have mandated polio vaccines? I eagerly await the removal of consumer protection laws, because I can make the decision for myself about what is safe for me. No more hand washing for restaurant staff - that’s an infringement on their personal choices. Ditto with food storage guidelines - refrigeration is expensive. Gotta do what I think is best “Better to die free than live in collective chains.” Ridiculous argument, and one that AGAIN if we made about basically any other societal rule that is for the collective good, we would be laughed out of the room. After 800k deaths in America alone, for sure, personal “freedom” stands above everyone else’s welfare.