15 ms·

Dutch court of appeal decides Deliveroo should honor collective labour agreement

88 points by the-dude 5y ago

kakoni 5y ago
So I wonder how well is this lobbying group (European Purpose Project) doing? > The founders and CEOs of Delivery Hero, Bolt, Glovo, and Wolt have joined forces to work on a better model for regulating platform companies with the aim of providing specific commitments and recommendations to governments. https://tech.eu/brief/delivery-hero-bolt-glovo-and-wolt-founders-announce-european-purpose-project/ https://tech.eu/brief/delivery-hero-bolt-glovo-and-wolt-foun...
dirkf 5y ago
Meanwhile in Belgium: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/12/08/couriers-fail-to-win-their-case-against-deliveroo/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/12/08/couriers-fail-to-win...
the-dude 5y ago
Dutch source only, sorry. Decision is retro-active to 2015 and Deliveroo should pay pensions back to 2015.
- lnxg33k1 5y ago
  Just when I thought the good news would stop, you make me even happier, to hell the corporate greed
- isaacfrond 5y ago
  The court earlier decided that Uber drivers are employees. Problems is that Uber does not adhere to the decision and that the Tax office seems unwilling to enforce it. We'll have to see if Deliveroo will stick to the decision.
  - lnxg33k1 5y ago
    If it's the dutch tax office, just tell them that Uber's owners are immigrants, they will for sure try to enforce anything on them
  - lebuffon 5y ago
    This seems to be a thing now. Overt rejection of the authority of laws. Makes me wonder how long a civilization can continue if that attitude is widespread.
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      >Makes me wonder how long a civilization can continue if that attitude is widespread. We seem to be focused more on getting the stock market and the price of assets up, up, up, and calling that progress and a sign of prosperity for our society. The French and the Russian revolutions have shown society has a breaking point at wich the working class will revolt and behead the ruling class. However, that was over 100 years ago and today, the ruling class has much better surveillance technology and weapons than the peasants of today and can monitor and quench any uprising before it even manifests. Plus, the ruling and asset owning classes don't live within striking distance of the angry mobs like they did 100 years ago, but can live safely in a remote place like some island around New Zeeland and run their affairs remotely through a shell enterprise registered at a post-box in Luxembourg for example.
  - timwaagh 5y ago
    The colleague who has to forcibly take all those back owed unemployment insurance premiums and no longer deductable business expenses from the affected cabbies has my deepest sympathies. Probably a few personal bankruptcies coming out of that.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      I’m not sure how that works in the Netherlands, but in germany the risk of “Scheinselbständigkeit” which is probably the closest common analog resides nearly completely with the employer. The legislature wants to strongly discourage this behavior on the employer side. The best-case result for they employer is that the can deduct the employees share of social security from the last three wage payments, but no further. And that best case requires that there is no fault of the employer, which is a rare case. Given that European law is fairly well aligned when it comes to labor law, I’d be surprised if there’s an option to substantially dip into the cabbies past payments.
isaacfrond 5y ago
Deliveroo is bound by the collective agreement (CAO) and must pay pension premiums for delivery workers Amsterdam, 21 December 2021 The Amsterdam Court of Appeal has ruled in 2 judgments that Deliveroo is subject to the CAO and is considered a participant in the professional transport pension fund. Earlier this year, the Court of Appeal already ruled that the delivery drivers at Deliveroo work on the basis of an employment contract (ECLI:NL:GHAMS:2021:392). The 2 new rulings mean, among other things, that Deliveroo must apply the CAO with retroactive effect from 2015 to delivery drivers who worked for it and must pay pension premiums. Collective Labour Agreement and Mandatory Pension Fund The case revolves around the interpretation of the scope of the provisions of the CAO and the Decree Mandatory Pension Fund for Professional Transport, respectively. This interpretation is based on the standards developed by the Supreme Court. Delivery/transport is core activity According to the Court of Appeal, Deliveroo's core business is delivering meals. The fact that Deliveroo has far fewer office staff than deliverers, that a significant proportion of Deliveroo's operating costs are related to the delivery activity and that the agreements with the affiliated restaurants in most cases include a commission for delivering the meals play a role in this. The agreement with the delivery companies includes the fact that they are primarily engaged in the delivery - and therefore transportation - of meals. According to the Court of Appeal, it does not matter whether the transportation is done by car, scooter or bicycle. The conclusion is that Deliveroo is subject to the CAO for professional goods transport and is obliged to participate in the professional transport sector pension fund. Rulings of the subdistrict court are confirmed Earlier, in 2019, the Subdistrict Court in Amsterdam reached the same conclusion. Those rulings have now been upheld by the court of appeal. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) + a few edits
- whazor 5y ago
  This particular CAO, which stands for collective labour agreement, is available in English at https://www.fnv.nl/getmedia/75fcb1da-9177-47a3-9072-633aeee34cf3/498-tln-beroepsgoederenvervoer-cao-engels-2017-2020.pdf https://www.fnv.nl/getmedia/75fcb1da-9177-47a3-9072-633aeee3...
the-dude 5y ago
I've read a user comment on a Dutch new site that said this : It is a disgrace the labour union had to fight this, as it was the duty of the the Dutch government ( which should have worked to enforce its laws ).
- jb1991 5y ago
  It’s kind of hard to argue with that.
- tgv 5y ago
  Thank God we still have unions. The (current) government is only focusing on shareholder value. Workers, unite!
  - jsiepkes 5y ago
    Don't forget that pension funds are also share holders. People lose theirs jobs because hedge-funds funded by Dutch pension funds trash companies for share holder value (V&D is a good example, look it up). The biggest irony is unions crying foul about hedge-funds but unions stay very silent about the fact that they fund pension funds... While the government might not always have your best interest at heart unions certainly also have agenda's of their own. Forcing everyone in to pension funds that have: * Not adjusted for inflation for ages; * Increased the age at which you get your pension with 5 -8 years; * Increased the amount you have to contribute to the pension fund; So basically every year you get less, have to work longer and pay more. Since the people who now get a pension don't want to make the necessary changes to the system (can't even say I blame them) I seriously doubt if in 30 - 40 years when I'm supposed to get a pension there is going to be anything left. And that's not even taking in to account incidents like pension funds where the piggy bank gets plundered due to the incompetence of unions and participants [1]. When they fly the proverbial plane in to the ground you are forced to go down with them. [1] https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/130172/Hoe-de-haven-miljoenen-pensioengeld-misliep https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/130172/Hoe-de-haven-miljoenen...
    - Fnoord 5y ago
netcan 5y ago
Surprisingly concise and clear. Metapoint, but wtf... I'm always surprised at the extent to which courts, legislators, regulators and such prefer to decide by analogy. Determining that that X is fundamentally like Y and therefore Y rules apply. This seemingly doesn't require decision making at all. Instead of deciding and making choices, there's a strong preference for determining & adjudicating. I'm not implying this is inappropriate here. Seems pretty straightforward that if labour laws/agreements apply to deliveries, they apply to deliveroo. I wonder why it took this long, in fact. That said... labour "uberization," online privacy issues, media monopolisation issues and any of many digital issues de jure are actually new scenarios. They're not just derivative of pre-digital issues. The effects of one decision or another can be totally unrelated to considerations taken into account whenever the original decision/law was made. The best ruleset, decision or whatnot is not necessarily a derivative of some old one. Who cares if Google is like Bell or standard in some legalistically specific way? Who cares if uber is "really" just a taxis service, limo service or whatnot? Why is that relevant by default? Is it really so impossible to create new labour laws, agreements or whatever we need that actually take into account the existence of app-based casual labour realities of our time?
- AndyMcConachie 5y ago
  If you're interested in how metaphor and law interact I recommend A Clearing in the Forest, by Steve Winter. https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3631960.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo363196...
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Actually a lot of what the gig economy does isn't new. It's 19th century pre labour union stuff only now with an app. Oude kruiken nieuwe zakken as we say in Dutch. Unfortunately the success of socialism made everyone think the world had moved on from such naked and unapologetic exploitation. intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us. And early in the twenty first century came the great disillusionment.
  - 5y ago
mmarq 5y ago
Seeing how Deliveroo stocks are doing, one wonders if it is all just regulatory arbitrage.

88 points by the-dude 5y ago

So I wonder how well is this lobbying group (European Purpose Project) doing? > The founders and CEOs of Delivery Hero, Bolt, Glovo, and Wolt have joined forces to work on a better model for regulating platform companies with the aim of providing specific commitments and recommendations to governments. https://tech.eu/brief/delivery-hero-bolt-glovo-and-wolt-founders-announce-european-purpose-project/ https://tech.eu/brief/delivery-hero-bolt-glovo-and-wolt-foun...

dirkf 5y ago

Meanwhile in Belgium: https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/12/08/couriers-fail-to-win-their-case-against-deliveroo/ https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2021/12/08/couriers-fail-to-win...

the-dude 5y ago

Dutch source only, sorry. Decision is retro-active to 2015 and Deliveroo should pay pensions back to 2015.

lnxg33k1 5y ago
Just when I thought the good news would stop, you make me even happier, to hell the corporate greed
isaacfrond 5y ago
The court earlier decided that Uber drivers are employees. Problems is that Uber does not adhere to the decision and that the Tax office seems unwilling to enforce it. We'll have to see if Deliveroo will stick to the decision.
- lnxg33k1 5y ago
  If it's the dutch tax office, just tell them that Uber's owners are immigrants, they will for sure try to enforce anything on them
- lebuffon 5y ago
  This seems to be a thing now. Overt rejection of the authority of laws. Makes me wonder how long a civilization can continue if that attitude is widespread.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Makes me wonder how long a civilization can continue if that attitude is widespread. We seem to be focused more on getting the stock market and the price of assets up, up, up, and calling that progress and a sign of prosperity for our society. The French and the Russian revolutions have shown society has a breaking point at wich the working class will revolt and behead the ruling class. However, that was over 100 years ago and today, the ruling class has much better surveillance technology and weapons than the peasants of today and can monitor and quench any uprising before it even manifests. Plus, the ruling and asset owning classes don't live within striking distance of the angry mobs like they did 100 years ago, but can live safely in a remote place like some island around New Zeeland and run their affairs remotely through a shell enterprise registered at a post-box in Luxembourg for example.
- timwaagh 5y ago
  The colleague who has to forcibly take all those back owed unemployment insurance premiums and no longer deductable business expenses from the affected cabbies has my deepest sympathies. Probably a few personal bankruptcies coming out of that.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    I’m not sure how that works in the Netherlands, but in germany the risk of “Scheinselbständigkeit” which is probably the closest common analog resides nearly completely with the employer. The legislature wants to strongly discourage this behavior on the employer side. The best-case result for they employer is that the can deduct the employees share of social security from the last three wage payments, but no further. And that best case requires that there is no fault of the employer, which is a rare case. Given that European law is fairly well aligned when it comes to labor law, I’d be surprised if there’s an option to substantially dip into the cabbies past payments.

isaacfrond 5y ago

Deliveroo is bound by the collective agreement (CAO) and must pay pension premiums for delivery workers Amsterdam, 21 December 2021 The Amsterdam Court of Appeal has ruled in 2 judgments that Deliveroo is subject to the CAO and is considered a participant in the professional transport pension fund. Earlier this year, the Court of Appeal already ruled that the delivery drivers at Deliveroo work on the basis of an employment contract (ECLI:NL:GHAMS:2021:392). The 2 new rulings mean, among other things, that Deliveroo must apply the CAO with retroactive effect from 2015 to delivery drivers who worked for it and must pay pension premiums. Collective Labour Agreement and Mandatory Pension Fund The case revolves around the interpretation of the scope of the provisions of the CAO and the Decree Mandatory Pension Fund for Professional Transport, respectively. This interpretation is based on the standards developed by the Supreme Court. Delivery/transport is core activity According to the Court of Appeal, Deliveroo's core business is delivering meals. The fact that Deliveroo has far fewer office staff than deliverers, that a significant proportion of Deliveroo's operating costs are related to the delivery activity and that the agreements with the affiliated restaurants in most cases include a commission for delivering the meals play a role in this. The agreement with the delivery companies includes the fact that they are primarily engaged in the delivery - and therefore transportation - of meals. According to the Court of Appeal, it does not matter whether the transportation is done by car, scooter or bicycle. The conclusion is that Deliveroo is subject to the CAO for professional goods transport and is obliged to participate in the professional transport sector pension fund. Rulings of the subdistrict court are confirmed Earlier, in 2019, the Subdistrict Court in Amsterdam reached the same conclusion. Those rulings have now been upheld by the court of appeal. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) + a few edits

whazor 5y ago
This particular CAO, which stands for collective labour agreement, is available in English at https://www.fnv.nl/getmedia/75fcb1da-9177-47a3-9072-633aeee34cf3/498-tln-beroepsgoederenvervoer-cao-engels-2017-2020.pdf https://www.fnv.nl/getmedia/75fcb1da-9177-47a3-9072-633aeee3...

the-dude 5y ago

I've read a user comment on a Dutch new site that said this : It is a disgrace the labour union had to fight this, as it was the duty of the the Dutch government ( which should have worked to enforce its laws ).

jb1991 5y ago
It’s kind of hard to argue with that.
tgv 5y ago
Thank God we still have unions. The (current) government is only focusing on shareholder value. Workers, unite!
- jsiepkes 5y ago
  Don't forget that pension funds are also share holders. People lose theirs jobs because hedge-funds funded by Dutch pension funds trash companies for share holder value (V&D is a good example, look it up). The biggest irony is unions crying foul about hedge-funds but unions stay very silent about the fact that they fund pension funds... While the government might not always have your best interest at heart unions certainly also have agenda's of their own. Forcing everyone in to pension funds that have: * Not adjusted for inflation for ages; * Increased the age at which you get your pension with 5 -8 years; * Increased the amount you have to contribute to the pension fund; So basically every year you get less, have to work longer and pay more. Since the people who now get a pension don't want to make the necessary changes to the system (can't even say I blame them) I seriously doubt if in 30 - 40 years when I'm supposed to get a pension there is going to be anything left. And that's not even taking in to account incidents like pension funds where the piggy bank gets plundered due to the incompetence of unions and participants [1]. When they fly the proverbial plane in to the ground you are forced to go down with them. [1] https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/130172/Hoe-de-haven-miljoenen-pensioengeld-misliep https://www.rijnmond.nl/nieuws/130172/Hoe-de-haven-miljoenen...
  - Fnoord 5y ago

netcan 5y ago

Surprisingly concise and clear. Metapoint, but wtf... I'm always surprised at the extent to which courts, legislators, regulators and such prefer to decide by analogy. Determining that that X is fundamentally like Y and therefore Y rules apply. This seemingly doesn't require decision making at all. Instead of deciding and making choices, there's a strong preference for determining & adjudicating. I'm not implying this is inappropriate here. Seems pretty straightforward that if labour laws/agreements apply to deliveries, they apply to deliveroo. I wonder why it took this long, in fact. That said... labour "uberization," online privacy issues, media monopolisation issues and any of many digital issues de jure are actually new scenarios. They're not just derivative of pre-digital issues. The effects of one decision or another can be totally unrelated to considerations taken into account whenever the original decision/law was made. The best ruleset, decision or whatnot is not necessarily a derivative of some old one. Who cares if Google is like Bell or standard in some legalistically specific way? Who cares if uber is "really" just a taxis service, limo service or whatnot? Why is that relevant by default? Is it really so impossible to create new labour laws, agreements or whatever we need that actually take into account the existence of app-based casual labour realities of our time?

AndyMcConachie 5y ago
If you're interested in how metaphor and law interact I recommend A Clearing in the Forest, by Steve Winter. https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3631960.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo363196...
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Actually a lot of what the gig economy does isn't new. It's 19th century pre labour union stuff only now with an app. Oude kruiken nieuwe zakken as we say in Dutch. Unfortunately the success of socialism made everyone think the world had moved on from such naked and unapologetic exploitation. intellects vast and cool and unsympathetic, regarded this earth with envious eyes, and slowly and surely drew their plans against us. And early in the twenty first century came the great disillusionment.
- 5y ago

mmarq 5y ago

Seeing how Deliveroo stocks are doing, one wonders if it is all just regulatory arbitrage.