4 ms·

The public health agencies put out a lot of information, if you want a good example of one go look at Bonnie Henry (British Coloumbia) weekly addresses, she goe

The public health agencies put out a lot of information, if you want a good example of one go look at Bonnie Henry (British Coloumbia) weekly addresses, she goes into great detail about measures taken etc.. They'll tell you exactly the genetic breakdown of the variants, which groups are getting what and why, whether it's schools, travellers, unvaccinated, homes, they'll tell you how many beds, how many 'overfill beds' how many surgeries postponed, how many staff, how many left due to no vaxx etc.. Just because you don't know what the plan is, doesn't mean there isn't one. Provincial and Federal entities are in constant contact with their peers in Europe, the US the WHO etc. there's a lot of information going around. Anyone who has been in such dynamic operational circumstances (i.e. the Army / Armed Forces) knows what facing chaos is, and generally speaking, as the saying goes 'No Plan Survives Contact' - it's more about managing information, preparedness/training than any kind of specific tactic. And FYI, the #1 tactic by far, thus far, has been vaccines. The data from all the provinces fairly clearly shows that the pandemic exists mostly among the unvaxxed, to the point that if we had near 100% vaxx, I'm not sure if R0 would be anywhere near 1, i.e. it could not spread. That said, Omicron is a game-changer in that regard.

refurb 5y ago
”Just because you don't know what the plan is, doesn't mean there isn't one.” This is exactly what I’d say if I didn’t have a plan. Wasn’t it BC that manipulated covid cases in the hospital setting and had to own up to the correct data? And no, the current vaccines aren’t getting us out of this. Look at Singapore with 95% of eligible population vaccinated - they had a raging wave last month where 80%+ of the cases were fully vaccinated. The vaccines keep them out of the hospital but don’t seem to do much for infection or transmission risk (see Lancet analysis).
- busymom0 5y ago
  Even Ontario has 76% of cases in fully vaccinated while having a 77% full vaccination rate in the population. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data Canada had under 10% vaccination till June 10. So vast majority of our vaccinations happened since June 10 and as they wane off in 3-6 months, they are now all getting infected.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    That is basically not true, by your own reference. Did you mix up the colours on the chart? Most of those hospitalized are unvaccinated. Since June, by far most cases are among the unvaccinated. Given a ~75% vaccination rate, the fact that >75% of cases are 'unvaccinated' implies strongly that this is an issue of unvaccinated - both in 'spread' and number hospitalized. The only place the data diverges is in the last 2 weeks - i.e Omicron where the gap is closing with less vaccine protections, however, the data out is indicating the Booster shot is as effective against Omicron as it was against Delta. As Boosters are given out, you'll again see the big gap of spread/hospitalzattions among unvaccinated, with the caveat that Omicron may possibly not be as likely to put people in the hospital.
    - busymom0 5y ago
      So you agree that "Given a ~75% vaccination rate, the fact that >75% of cases are 'unvaccinated' implies strongly that this is an issue of unvaccinated - both in 'spread' and number hospitalized." but then you also say "That is basically not true, by your own reference."?? That doesn't make logical sense. Like I have said before, it's a potential severe symptom mitigator which also wanes off over few months. That doesn't mean it prevents transmission or infection. My comment was in reference to "vaccine passports" which make no logical sense when they don't prevent infection or transmission. Also, the hospitalizations and deaths are vastly in elderly, obese or immunocompromised. It makes no sense to force it on young, fit and healthy people, especially not on kids. You are aware that Pfizer is already talking about a 4th shot right? How many more shots do you suggest people should take?
      - jollybean 5y ago
        [flagged]
- jollybean 5y ago
  "The suspect said he didn't commit a crime! He must be guilty because that's exactly what a guilty person would say!" This is not helpful rhetoric. BC releases tons of data on a weekly basis. Here is their conf. from last week [1] there's tons of great information. They talk about and provide their justifications for their policies. Agree or not, they are rational. "And no, the current vaccines aren’t getting us out of this. " Your Singapore anecdote proves just the opposite: while Singapore had 'kept out' COVID and had their first, real material wave over the last few months, their mortality was exceedingly low, maxing out at 15 deaths/day with almost 4000 cases a day at their peak. For reference, Canada had 4K cases/day at the same time, with about 40 deaths/day. While Singapore was having more cases per capita, wich is not unexpected for an urban area with their 'first big wave' - the vaccines were very effective in saving lives. The same thing will eventually happen in Australia, NZ and Taiwan. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF1H5IkhWvo&ab_channel=VancouverSun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF1H5IkhWvo&ab_channel=Vanco...
  - refurb 5y ago
    I like how you skipped BC's data manipulation. And yes, vaccines reduce deaths but not new cases. Expect another massive wave in Canada (already started) and another round of lockdowns...just like 2021. It's not going away.
    - jollybean 5y ago
      I did not skip BC's data manipulation, that's just crap you made up. The data that I provided twice on this thread demonstrates decisively that vaccines reduce new cases: the clear majority of cases are from unvaccinated even though they are a minority of the population. This is definitely an indication of reduced spread.
busymom0 5y ago
> The data from all the provinces fairly clearly shows that the pandemic exists mostly among the unvaxxed, to the point that if we had near 100% vaxx, I'm not sure if R0 would be anywhere near 1, i.e. it could not spread. That said, Omicron is a game-changer in that regard. This is entirely wrong. There's now over 15 studies showing that vaccinated, even in mild cases, have the same viral load as the unvaccinated, especially after 2-6 months of the shots. This shot is not preventing transmission as has been clearly shown several times now - before omicron. If the shots don't prevent transmission and mild cases have same viral load, then the R0 is unaffected. Also Ontario has 76% of cases in fully vaccinated while having a 77% full vaccination rate in the population. Canada had under 10% vaccination till June 10. So vast majority of our vaccinations happened since June 10 and as they wane off in 3-6 months, they are now all getting infected. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data So it's not "pandemic exists mostly among the unvaxxed". This lie being repeated again and again is how we ended up in this situation where triple vaccinated people are now being surprised that they caught covid. The shots are merely a potential severe symptom mitigator and might be useful if you are old, obese or have health conditions. The mandates of something which doesn't prevent transmission has been the most illogical thing to ever come out of the government. The cafeterias at malls have these waist high metal barricades to prevent unvaccinated from sitting down in the cafeteria and they are checking vaccine status to enter inside the metal barricaded area. The entire thing has air exchange with outside the barricade. It's the most illogical thing I have ever seen.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Your logic is flawed. 1) "That some studies show similar viral loads" - does not tell us about the net transmissiblity of the different populations. You have to get COVID in the first place in order to have a 'viral load', but that inference won't take into account those who don't get it. 2) From BC's late August Report (it was the first one that came up when I Googled): "From Aug. 13-26, people not fully vaccinated accounted for 81.7% of cases and 85.8% of hospitalizations." FYI they had 75% of the over age 12 with 1 dose and 85% with 2 doses at that time. (Same reference) The data is decisive and shows that the virus is overwhelmingly spreading among the unvaccinated part of the population - and clearly a factor in the R0. At that point, the unvaccinated make up ~25% of the population and 80% of the cases. 3) Hospital resources are being drained by the unvaccinated. There are some people who legit cannot take it, and there are some people who are, let's just say, 'truly mentally deficient' who we can't hold accountable for their actions. But the vast majority of the 'unvaccinated' are irrationally and irresponsibly making a choice that is not only creating a much greater burden to the Health Care system - but they are also materially helping the disease spread. ---> COVID mostly a plague of the unvaccinated and they are externalizing harm and cost to others. [1] https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021HLTH0054-001704 https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021HLTH0054-001704

refurb 5y ago

”Just because you don't know what the plan is, doesn't mean there isn't one.” This is exactly what I’d say if I didn’t have a plan. Wasn’t it BC that manipulated covid cases in the hospital setting and had to own up to the correct data? And no, the current vaccines aren’t getting us out of this. Look at Singapore with 95% of eligible population vaccinated - they had a raging wave last month where 80%+ of the cases were fully vaccinated. The vaccines keep them out of the hospital but don’t seem to do much for infection or transmission risk (see Lancet analysis).

busymom0 5y ago
Even Ontario has 76% of cases in fully vaccinated while having a 77% full vaccination rate in the population. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data Canada had under 10% vaccination till June 10. So vast majority of our vaccinations happened since June 10 and as they wane off in 3-6 months, they are now all getting infected.
- jollybean 5y ago
  That is basically not true, by your own reference. Did you mix up the colours on the chart? Most of those hospitalized are unvaccinated. Since June, by far most cases are among the unvaccinated. Given a ~75% vaccination rate, the fact that >75% of cases are 'unvaccinated' implies strongly that this is an issue of unvaccinated - both in 'spread' and number hospitalized. The only place the data diverges is in the last 2 weeks - i.e Omicron where the gap is closing with less vaccine protections, however, the data out is indicating the Booster shot is as effective against Omicron as it was against Delta. As Boosters are given out, you'll again see the big gap of spread/hospitalzattions among unvaccinated, with the caveat that Omicron may possibly not be as likely to put people in the hospital.
  - busymom0 5y ago
    So you agree that "Given a ~75% vaccination rate, the fact that >75% of cases are 'unvaccinated' implies strongly that this is an issue of unvaccinated - both in 'spread' and number hospitalized." but then you also say "That is basically not true, by your own reference."?? That doesn't make logical sense. Like I have said before, it's a potential severe symptom mitigator which also wanes off over few months. That doesn't mean it prevents transmission or infection. My comment was in reference to "vaccine passports" which make no logical sense when they don't prevent infection or transmission. Also, the hospitalizations and deaths are vastly in elderly, obese or immunocompromised. It makes no sense to force it on young, fit and healthy people, especially not on kids. You are aware that Pfizer is already talking about a 4th shot right? How many more shots do you suggest people should take?
    - jollybean 5y ago
      [flagged]
jollybean 5y ago
"The suspect said he didn't commit a crime! He must be guilty because that's exactly what a guilty person would say!" This is not helpful rhetoric. BC releases tons of data on a weekly basis. Here is their conf. from last week [1] there's tons of great information. They talk about and provide their justifications for their policies. Agree or not, they are rational. "And no, the current vaccines aren’t getting us out of this. " Your Singapore anecdote proves just the opposite: while Singapore had 'kept out' COVID and had their first, real material wave over the last few months, their mortality was exceedingly low, maxing out at 15 deaths/day with almost 4000 cases a day at their peak. For reference, Canada had 4K cases/day at the same time, with about 40 deaths/day. While Singapore was having more cases per capita, wich is not unexpected for an urban area with their 'first big wave' - the vaccines were very effective in saving lives. The same thing will eventually happen in Australia, NZ and Taiwan. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF1H5IkhWvo&ab_channel=VancouverSun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF1H5IkhWvo&ab_channel=Vanco...
- refurb 5y ago
  I like how you skipped BC's data manipulation. And yes, vaccines reduce deaths but not new cases. Expect another massive wave in Canada (already started) and another round of lockdowns...just like 2021. It's not going away.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    I did not skip BC's data manipulation, that's just crap you made up. The data that I provided twice on this thread demonstrates decisively that vaccines reduce new cases: the clear majority of cases are from unvaccinated even though they are a minority of the population. This is definitely an indication of reduced spread.

busymom0 5y ago

> The data from all the provinces fairly clearly shows that the pandemic exists mostly among the unvaxxed, to the point that if we had near 100% vaxx, I'm not sure if R0 would be anywhere near 1, i.e. it could not spread. That said, Omicron is a game-changer in that regard. This is entirely wrong. There's now over 15 studies showing that vaccinated, even in mild cases, have the same viral load as the unvaccinated, especially after 2-6 months of the shots. This shot is not preventing transmission as has been clearly shown several times now - before omicron. If the shots don't prevent transmission and mild cases have same viral load, then the R0 is unaffected. Also Ontario has 76% of cases in fully vaccinated while having a 77% full vaccination rate in the population. Canada had under 10% vaccination till June 10. So vast majority of our vaccinations happened since June 10 and as they wane off in 3-6 months, they are now all getting infected. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data So it's not "pandemic exists mostly among the unvaxxed". This lie being repeated again and again is how we ended up in this situation where triple vaccinated people are now being surprised that they caught covid. The shots are merely a potential severe symptom mitigator and might be useful if you are old, obese or have health conditions. The mandates of something which doesn't prevent transmission has been the most illogical thing to ever come out of the government. The cafeterias at malls have these waist high metal barricades to prevent unvaccinated from sitting down in the cafeteria and they are checking vaccine status to enter inside the metal barricaded area. The entire thing has air exchange with outside the barricade. It's the most illogical thing I have ever seen.

jollybean 5y ago
Your logic is flawed. 1) "That some studies show similar viral loads" - does not tell us about the net transmissiblity of the different populations. You have to get COVID in the first place in order to have a 'viral load', but that inference won't take into account those who don't get it. 2) From BC's late August Report (it was the first one that came up when I Googled): "From Aug. 13-26, people not fully vaccinated accounted for 81.7% of cases and 85.8% of hospitalizations." FYI they had 75% of the over age 12 with 1 dose and 85% with 2 doses at that time. (Same reference) The data is decisive and shows that the virus is overwhelmingly spreading among the unvaccinated part of the population - and clearly a factor in the R0. At that point, the unvaccinated make up ~25% of the population and 80% of the cases. 3) Hospital resources are being drained by the unvaccinated. There are some people who legit cannot take it, and there are some people who are, let's just say, 'truly mentally deficient' who we can't hold accountable for their actions. But the vast majority of the 'unvaccinated' are irrationally and irresponsibly making a choice that is not only creating a much greater burden to the Health Care system - but they are also materially helping the disease spread. ---> COVID mostly a plague of the unvaccinated and they are externalizing harm and cost to others. [1] https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021HLTH0054-001704 https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2021HLTH0054-001704