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That and the cultural norm that we're creating around mental illnesses. I mean, it's great that the few who truly do have mental disorders can be accepted socia

That and the cultural norm that we're creating around mental illnesses. I mean, it's great that the few who truly do have mental disorders can be accepted socially but what are we doing to the thousands of kids that just need some structural social target to aim at? Personally, I was an emotional basket case until well after college when I decided that I should give the "be normal" thing a try. Turns out being normal makes a lot of things easier in life. It's amazing how much freedom you have to be weird on the inside when you're normal on the outside.

jimkleiber 5y ago
I try to see things less from a "mental health" perspective and more from an "emotional health" one. I'd be really curious to see how people who work as psychologists and psychiatrists might delineate between a mental health issue and an emotional health issue. Perhaps it's just semantics and they wouldn't see a difference, I guess I'm just looking for ways to address some emotional challenges separately from potential mental health challenges.
stadium 5y ago
How do you define being "normal?". How do you manage the tension between your inward and outward presentations of yourself? It seems exhausting, and that's coming from someone who does that currently and idealizes some magical place when those selves merge into the same person. That's "normal" to me, when I don't have to put masks on to fit into a preconceived notion of who society wants me to be. That's also a big part of mental health, not boxing people into mental disorder diagnoses, but helping people figure themselves out and be comfortable in their own skin.
- d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
  I define "normal" as things like wearing unremarkable clothing, eating at trendy restaurants, going sightseeing, saying grace at family dinners, keeping a decent job, bringing food to parties, keeping my lawn tidy, driving an unremarkable car, learning the art of small talk, etc. People use these things to calibrate their interactions with a person they're meeting for the first time. Once people see you as "normal" they're more prone to listen when you start throwing out the weird ideas.
  - stadium 5y ago
    I've come to believe that weird is normal. No one has their shit together 100%. Your version of normal is "don't rock the boat" normal. Rocking the boat is painful emotionally so don't do it normal. I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to undo that version of normal and figure out who I really am. And you're probably perfectly fine in your version of normal. Which really illustrates that mental health is very personal and multidimensional. It doesn't mean I'm fucked up and you're not or visa versa. Gotta meet people where they're at.
    - MrPatan 5y ago
      Trying to be normal is normal. Being normal may have never been normal, but trying to be was and is. That's what were losing, people don't even try to be normal anymore, because having a mental illness has been normalised. It's not the right side of history, it's not progressive, it's not inclusive. There will be a price to pay and we'll only find out how much it is once we get the bill.
      - TheGigaChad 5y ago
      - bildung 5y ago
        That is trivially falsified, the prevalence of mental illness is not really related to the acceptance in society (outside of society declaring things to be a mental illness, e.g. homosexuality). For example in Germany the incidence of people missing work days for mental health reasons is higher in regions with less academic jobs (a milieu which tends to be more open to these topics) and in the formerly socialist parts (where there was a higher tabooization of mental health topics). Similar patterns exist for suicide. I think I know what you get at, but it is important to differentiate between e.g. someone with social anxiety overcoming their anxiety to take part in society (the good way of "trying to be normal") and someone repressing what should actually be worked on (the bad way, hurting both the person, and, long term, society). The important point with all things regarding the human mind (education, psychology etc.) is that one strictly can't infer what actually happens from outside observation alone. Let's say there exist two persons, A and B, and both play 6 hours of videogames a day. But person A is a perfectly healthy introvert, while with person B this actually is addictive behaviour concealing mental health problems the person hasn't found the strength to confront yet. It depends on how they feel while playing, and how they feel when not playing.
shmel 5y ago
I don't think it is the right mindset. Mental health is a spectrum as much as "being fit" is a spectrum. Just because you aren't morbidly obese doesn't mean you won't benefit from learning how to take care of your body. Most people don't need a personal trainer and a dietician when they gained a few kilos extra. The same way everybody needs to understand how to heal their mind and recognize when things get difficult enough to benefit from professional health.
- brandall10 5y ago
  And I’d argue the self help industry - which has existed for a good 100 years now - has served this purpose for these types of folks.
- d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
  I guess my point is that I think kids should be hoping they don't have any medical condition instead of asking a therapist "Doc, can you find me a diagnosis that fits my current mood somewhere between asbergers and schizophrenia with a dash of manic depressive"
  - shmel 5y ago
    Of course. We are just going through a strange period of mental health. It used to be: "only very very serious problems are worth attention and in this case only professional can help you". This is why it was (and to an extent still is) stigmatized. Now we are moving towards "we all have mental health problems of different severity, mental health isn't binary". However, people still operate with the old dogma: "have a problem? Go to therapy, you can't help yourself, don't even try". That's why people tend to go to psychologists (and psychiatrists) more and more. Of course, many expect to get a prescription that fixes them magically the same way they want to have a pill for literally any medical problem. However, just saying "there is nothing wrong with you" often means "your state does not fit any of predefined diagnoses" rather than "it is perfectly normal to feel that way". The same way people often complain about back pain and doctors can only say "there is no acute injury, Xray is fine, nothing I can do for you". It doesn't mean you can ignore it and go about your day. It means that most likely you have to find a lifestyle change to fix this yourself. It can be yoga, it can be getting a better chair and being more active, it can be a new mattress, etc. Physical pain is more straightforward because most people understand that feeling pain is not normal, it means something is wrong. Nobody will tell you "if doc said you are okay, then your back pain is made up, you should stop being so dramatic".

jimkleiber 5y ago

I try to see things less from a "mental health" perspective and more from an "emotional health" one. I'd be really curious to see how people who work as psychologists and psychiatrists might delineate between a mental health issue and an emotional health issue. Perhaps it's just semantics and they wouldn't see a difference, I guess I'm just looking for ways to address some emotional challenges separately from potential mental health challenges.

stadium 5y ago

How do you define being "normal?". How do you manage the tension between your inward and outward presentations of yourself? It seems exhausting, and that's coming from someone who does that currently and idealizes some magical place when those selves merge into the same person. That's "normal" to me, when I don't have to put masks on to fit into a preconceived notion of who society wants me to be. That's also a big part of mental health, not boxing people into mental disorder diagnoses, but helping people figure themselves out and be comfortable in their own skin.

d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
I define "normal" as things like wearing unremarkable clothing, eating at trendy restaurants, going sightseeing, saying grace at family dinners, keeping a decent job, bringing food to parties, keeping my lawn tidy, driving an unremarkable car, learning the art of small talk, etc. People use these things to calibrate their interactions with a person they're meeting for the first time. Once people see you as "normal" they're more prone to listen when you start throwing out the weird ideas.
- stadium 5y ago
  I've come to believe that weird is normal. No one has their shit together 100%. Your version of normal is "don't rock the boat" normal. Rocking the boat is painful emotionally so don't do it normal. I've spent a lot of time in therapy trying to undo that version of normal and figure out who I really am. And you're probably perfectly fine in your version of normal. Which really illustrates that mental health is very personal and multidimensional. It doesn't mean I'm fucked up and you're not or visa versa. Gotta meet people where they're at.
  - MrPatan 5y ago
    Trying to be normal is normal. Being normal may have never been normal, but trying to be was and is. That's what were losing, people don't even try to be normal anymore, because having a mental illness has been normalised. It's not the right side of history, it's not progressive, it's not inclusive. There will be a price to pay and we'll only find out how much it is once we get the bill.
    - TheGigaChad 5y ago
    - bildung 5y ago
      That is trivially falsified, the prevalence of mental illness is not really related to the acceptance in society (outside of society declaring things to be a mental illness, e.g. homosexuality). For example in Germany the incidence of people missing work days for mental health reasons is higher in regions with less academic jobs (a milieu which tends to be more open to these topics) and in the formerly socialist parts (where there was a higher tabooization of mental health topics). Similar patterns exist for suicide. I think I know what you get at, but it is important to differentiate between e.g. someone with social anxiety overcoming their anxiety to take part in society (the good way of "trying to be normal") and someone repressing what should actually be worked on (the bad way, hurting both the person, and, long term, society). The important point with all things regarding the human mind (education, psychology etc.) is that one strictly can't infer what actually happens from outside observation alone. Let's say there exist two persons, A and B, and both play 6 hours of videogames a day. But person A is a perfectly healthy introvert, while with person B this actually is addictive behaviour concealing mental health problems the person hasn't found the strength to confront yet. It depends on how they feel while playing, and how they feel when not playing.

shmel 5y ago

I don't think it is the right mindset. Mental health is a spectrum as much as "being fit" is a spectrum. Just because you aren't morbidly obese doesn't mean you won't benefit from learning how to take care of your body. Most people don't need a personal trainer and a dietician when they gained a few kilos extra. The same way everybody needs to understand how to heal their mind and recognize when things get difficult enough to benefit from professional health.

brandall10 5y ago
And I’d argue the self help industry - which has existed for a good 100 years now - has served this purpose for these types of folks.
d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
I guess my point is that I think kids should be hoping they don't have any medical condition instead of asking a therapist "Doc, can you find me a diagnosis that fits my current mood somewhere between asbergers and schizophrenia with a dash of manic depressive"
- shmel 5y ago
  Of course. We are just going through a strange period of mental health. It used to be: "only very very serious problems are worth attention and in this case only professional can help you". This is why it was (and to an extent still is) stigmatized. Now we are moving towards "we all have mental health problems of different severity, mental health isn't binary". However, people still operate with the old dogma: "have a problem? Go to therapy, you can't help yourself, don't even try". That's why people tend to go to psychologists (and psychiatrists) more and more. Of course, many expect to get a prescription that fixes them magically the same way they want to have a pill for literally any medical problem. However, just saying "there is nothing wrong with you" often means "your state does not fit any of predefined diagnoses" rather than "it is perfectly normal to feel that way". The same way people often complain about back pain and doctors can only say "there is no acute injury, Xray is fine, nothing I can do for you". It doesn't mean you can ignore it and go about your day. It means that most likely you have to find a lifestyle change to fix this yourself. It can be yoga, it can be getting a better chair and being more active, it can be a new mattress, etc. Physical pain is more straightforward because most people understand that feeling pain is not normal, it means something is wrong. Nobody will tell you "if doc said you are okay, then your back pain is made up, you should stop being so dramatic".