I had this argument once -- I also believe Brainfuck is more of a machine than a language. Whereas Lisp is a language. The main reason is that Brainfuck lacks

I had this argument once -- I also believe Brainfuck is more of a machine than a language. Whereas Lisp is a language. The main reason is that Brainfuck lacks composition, so what happens in practice is that people GENERATE Brainfuck code rather than writing it. When you write code, you rely heavily on your programming language's mechanisms for composition in order to make something that works. Someone pointed me to people who DO actually program by hand in Brainfuck. There are some pretty big programs that are hand-written, not generated. Still I'm not entirely convinced, as they seem to be have been constructed through mental feats, not compositional language. It's a curious fact that human languages and programming languages compose in a way that can be leveraged to build very large things that "work". I guess there is some equivalence between building up a large body of knowledge through language and making a program that works. Brainfuck doesn't seem to have this property. The demonstrations of arithmetic and calculus in the post are nice examples of this in Lisp, and from there you have the rest of the world as your disposal (which is well documented in many books). With Brainfuck you're left crawling on your hands and knees, occasionally finding something that works, so to speak.