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Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes (2013)

• n4bz0r 5y ago
  From the list of the box contents: > Condoms Given you've received the box, isn't it a bit too late for that?
  • darrylb42 5y ago
    Condoms will hopefully prevent a second box arriving too soon.
    • thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Nursing will do that job automatically.
      • pdpi 5y ago
        My two cousins, born 10 months apart, would disagree.
      • IanCal 5y ago
        It certainly helps a lot if you're breastfeeding exclusively but it isn't as reliable as many would want.
        • AussieWog93 5y ago
          A quick Google suggests that exclusive breastfeeding on cue has a 98% effectiveness (typical use) at preventing pregnancy. The pill has only a 92% chance (again, typical use; if used correctly 100% of the time it is near-perfect). Partial breastfeeding (supplemented with formula) is much less effective, though!
      • t0mas88 5y ago
        This claim is made often enough that child birth care in the Netherlands specifically informs all new parents that breastfeeding is not a good contraceptive. It may work for some, but it's not a guarantee at all.
        • thaumasiotes 5y ago
          > child birth care in the Netherlands specifically informs all new parents that breastfeeding is not a good contraceptive But that's a lie. Breastfeeding is an excellent contraceptive, more effective than almost any other method we know. (Hormonal implants, which can't be misused, will be more effective. But only slightly more effective, because breastfeeding is already so effective that there's very little room for improvement.)
          • t0mas88 5y ago
            Not only the Dutch health services disagree, also the British NHS has this in their public info: > You can get pregnant as little as 3 weeks after the birth of a baby, even if you're breastfeeding and your periods haven't started again. > Unless you want to get pregnant again, it's important to use some kind of contraception every time you have sex after giving birth, including the first time.
  • usr1106 5y ago
    Getting pregnant too early again is not recommended. The body of the new mother should get some time too fully recover.
  • dzhiurgis 5y ago
    Women can be very fertile right after birth, although most don’t get their periods for months while breastfeeding. We got like 100 condoms after birth, which would mean years of sex given the stress and discomfort after birth.
    • AussieWog93 5y ago
      >We got like 100 condoms after birth, which would mean years of sex given the stress and discomfort after birth. Are you speaking from experience or is this just your expectation? My wife and I were back to normal pretty much as soon as everything healed up (4-6 weeks or so)
      • marsvin 5y ago
        No matter how fast you'll use those rubbers, it's also good for hygienic reasons. Would be very annoying to get UTI or such when there is a new humanbeing to be taken care of.
  • analog31 5y ago
    Actually, immediately after the birth of a child is a time when a lot of people re-think their birth control strategy.
• axegon_ 5y ago
  Come to think of it, this is great thinking. Sure, it's mostly symbolic but the message itself is beautiful: Finland is a wealthy nation and even in wealthy nations people don't get equal start: surely you'd have better options when your dad is an F1 world champion than the local plumber, but even so, this serves as a nice reminder. Sort of reminds me of a short story written about a century ago(and only one English translation that I'm aware of which is absolute crap annoyingly). With that in mind this[1] is probably more worthy of reading than the wretched translation. [1] https://lamfyk.wordpress.com/2020/05/02/the-tale-of-the-stairs/ https://lamfyk.wordpress.com/2020/05/02/the-tale-of-the-stai...
  • masklinn 5y ago
    > Sure, it's mostly symbolic Is it? The maternity box is worth a lot, and that the box itself doubles up as a crib (by design) seems like a huge convenience.
    • Hamuko 5y ago
      FWIW, you can actually choose a cash payment (170 euro) instead of receiving the maternity package, but 95% of first-time mothers choose the maternity package and two thirds of all mothers.
      • masklinn 5y ago
        You can choose a cash payment but the box is worth significantly more, something like double, plus the peace of mind that you should have most of what you need as you learn to care for your first.
  • smoe 5y ago
    I’m not sure if saying it’s a beautiful message does the initiative justice. It was introduced all the way back in 1938 for low income families at a time Finland was quite a bit a poorer country. I remember reading that a big goal initially was to reduce child mortality rate. One only gets the box if you visit a doctor during pregnancy for consultations which often wasn’t the case back then. But I don’t have source at hand writing on the phone, so might be wrong on that.
• reidjs 5y ago
  I think even considering using a box instead of a crib in the states may get you a visit from child protective services, or at least looks of disgust from your family or in-laws. Does anyone have experience trying this out?
  • unlikelymordant 5y ago
    > Does anyone have experience trying this out? Everybody in finland?
    • reidjs 5y ago
      Oh I meant suggesting it in the United States. I feel like it would not go over well, unless of course you or your SO are from Finland!
      • copo233 5y ago
        Define "go over well."
        • reidjs 5y ago
          I suspect they might take it as endangering the baby’s wellbeing to save a few bucks. The baby industry has got quite the stranglehold on some people.
          • usrbinbash 5y ago
            What people "take it as", and what facts are, are sometimes 2 very different things. The baby box is a blessing for many families, and it's also much more than the box (which btw. is not a cheap piece of cardboard but comes complete with an insulated mattress and bedding made of high quality materials): there are clothes, diapers, hygienic goods, etc. And last but not least, it's also a strong symbolic gesture: Society saying: "Don't worry, we got your back. You're not alone, we are all in this together, and we help each other."
      • 5y ago
• authed 5y ago
  Doesn't CO2 accumulate in the box since there are no holes on the sides?
  • thepete2 5y ago
    apparently co2's density is only slightly higher than the other gases, so they all mix. Otherwise all of the atmosphere's co2 would be at ground level too, wouldn't it?
  • atomicnumber3 5y ago
    Disclaimer: this is just my general impression after googling around for how much CO2 buildup/concentration might be a factor/cause of SIDS after becoming a parent. It's by no means any kind of reputable research, just the googling of a dad. The relative differences in weight/density between CO2, nitrogen, and oxygen just aren't big enough to matter much compared to the other forces that mix room air: convection, currents from forced air HVAC, air leakage, etc. Air is already 80% nitrogen, and when we exhale we only drop the % of oxygen from 20% to 16%. And consider the fairly small lung volume of the kind of infant who would be sleeping in the box. I'm sure you could get CO2 buildup in the box in very controlled lab settings, but in general practice as a crib it doesn't seem to be an issue. And in case you were wondering about the general case: is CO2 buildup an issue for infants? The answer seems to just be: no, and it doesn't even depend much on how much you run your HVAC or if you have a fan or how hole-y your crib is, etc. Room air just mixes enough normally that it's not that big of a deal.
    • Thlom 5y ago
      It could be a problem in the stroller. Some parents cover the stroller with a blanket to shield the child from direct sun light or wind. That is not a good idea, but don’t think many kids die from it to be honest. And I have left all our kids sleeping in the stroller with a rain cover without any issues. By the way, letting children sleep outside in the stroller is great. They sleep so much better outside. Especially if it’s cold outside, just put the child in a sleeping bag and put on a hat and they will sleep like a rock. Just saying since I have the impression this is a very Scandinavian thing?
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• 29athrowaway 5y ago
  A cushioned cardboard box is enough for a newborn. Its weakness could be moisture and high flammability. But aside from that it is perfect.
  • pandemicsoul 5y ago
    I mean, they've been doing this for decades. Don't you think their dataset is probably more informed than your speculation?
    • jmchuster 5y ago
      as my dad loves to say, 3000 years of chinese medicine _can't_ be wrong
    • 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
      Well, those 2 criticisms are true. You can test that out yourself. What’s missing is that lots of things in your home are bad in water and are flammable. But how often do you need to save a baby from an evil villain by tossing their little box into a river and hope a nice childless couple who always wanted a child finds them and raises them as their own? Situations where the material is a liability are few and far between.
      • PebblesRox 5y ago
        >how often do you need to save a baby from an evil villain by tossing their little box into a river Maybe this fear explains the popularity of the Moses basket https://www.google.com/search?q=moses+basket&client=ms-android-motorola-rev2&prmd=sivxn&sxsrf=AOaemvJImIYBdzOq08izJwVoWjEE3TCzwQ:1640152945612&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj45czt3fb0AhUxmHIEHf8YAlsQ_AUoAnoECAIQAg&biw=412&bih=757&dpr=1.75 https://www.google.com/search?q=moses+basket&client=ms-andro...
    • dragonwriter 5y ago
      The maternity kit includes more than just the box itself, which (along with concurrent economic development and other changes) confounds study of its effects. In fact, with imitations of the maternity kit (or just the box as a sleeping spot) becoming more popular outside of Finland recently, often boosted by marketing playing on the correlation of the kit and the decline in infant mortality in Finland, a number of health entities in recent years have raised concerns that the box-as-crib itself may be a safety risk rather than an aid.
• jsnell 5y ago
  There's three previous 250+ comment discussions of this article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12547353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12547353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20884456 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20884456
• Loranubi 5y ago
  In Taiwan these cardboard boxes for infants are sold in most baby shops as well. Although much more expensive than a comparable box from the post office...
• alliao 5y ago
  I wanted one so bad I asked whether they'd send to New Zealand, and it was almost $700 USD or so, luckily after some searching I come across NZ version of it minus all the supplies https://www.wdhb.org.nz/other/wahakurapepi-pods/ https://www.wdhb.org.nz/other/wahakurapepi-pods/
• songzme 5y ago
  My baby is due in 4 weeks. My wife and I shopped for weeks trying to buy a 2nd hand crib that was affordable (We ended up getting one for free from a neighbor on nextdoor). Never did it cross my mind that I could just use a cardboard box! I will definitely make a cardboard box for my upcoming baby, use it as much as I can, and see if I could get by without a crib! Perfect DIY project for a stay home dad, cribs always felt excessive to me.
  • qqqwerty 5y ago
    Check out your local Buy Nothing group on facebook as well. I have gotten tons of baby stuff from there. While we have purchased quite a few things over the past year, had I had a little more patience, and had my wife been more on board, I am pretty sure we could have acquired pretty much everything except diapers from Buy Nothing.
  • Swizec 5y ago
    As a non parent surrounded by friends having kids I often wonder how much money and faff is wasted on things kids won’t even remember.
    • watwut 5y ago
      Why would you set the benchmark at "the kid remembering it"?
    • JasonFruit 5y ago
      As a parent, I look back and think how much time and money I've wasted on things and actions my kids neither wanted nor remember. I look at my current life and wonder what I'll feel that way about in the future. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell what is worthwhile and what is not at the time.
      • satyrnein 5y ago
        As another parent, I completely agree. Of course, I also look back at all the time and money I wasted in my early thirties before I had kids, and also in my twenties, and also in college...
• pxeboot 5y ago
  They give these out at some hospitals in the US too [1]. [1] https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/health/2016/07/04/alaskas-largest-maternity-center-begins-offering-free-baby-boxes-to-new-parents/ https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/health/2016/07/04/alaskas-la...
• d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
  "I'll require a second box as we're doing a Lotus Birth" [Weak stomach warning] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_birth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_birth
• daenz 5y ago
  >It's a tradition that dates back to the 1930s and it's designed to give all children in Finland, no matter what background they're from, an equal start in life. That's like saying that because we have public school, all kids have an equal education. It's plain wrong. It doesn't work unless you force everyone to use the box and force everyone to go to public schools.
  • wutwutwutwut 5y ago
    If the box is designed for that purpose then it's designed for that purpose. Then it's not plain wrong. The article is not saying that all the kids have an equal start in life so not sure where you got that from. Your reasoning is like saying Red Cross isn't designed to reduce the suffering of people because there are still suffering people. It's an odd claim to make.
  • bobsmooth 5y ago
    Read "equal start" as "guaranteed minimum".
  • andi999 5y ago
    Public schools are very good in Finland.
    • raptorraver 5y ago
      Yes, also (at least) 95% of kids go to public school in Finland.
  • nextlevelwizard 5y ago
    I don't get what your comment is trying to say. If someone doesn't want to take the box they take the cash. If they take the box and immediately throw it into trash that is on them. Everyone still gets equal start.
    • daenz 5y ago
      Equal start...when you disregard all the pre-existing advantages and disadvantages that people have accumulated generationally. "Equal start" apparently means "equal bare minimum" not "everyone starting from the same place."
• nxpnsv 5y ago
  When we were travelling our baby slept in a suit case, (thinking outside the box?). I bought a clone from https://www.finnishbabybox.com/learn/tradition/ https://www.finnishbabybox.com/learn/tradition/, the content is great too, and the box is now used for toys...
• koksik202 5y ago
  Being a father of two and seeing how much money and decisions goes into buying baby stuff and thinking how struggling family might find it inaccessible it makes me cry to read “give all children in Finland, no matter what background they're from, an equal start in life.” Other countries give welfare benefits in form of money but that can be spent on things like addictions, in this case giving the set of necessary care items is much better
  • divbzero 5y ago
    I would appreciate this baby box even as a parent fortunate enough to afford the material goods it contains. A large part of its value lies in the time and effort saved and the psychological comfort in knowing I haven’t forgotten anything essential.
  • Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
    > Other countries give welfare benefits in form of money but that can be spent on things like addictions Why is it that when discussing welfare benefits the topic of them being spent on addictions is often brought up. If an addiction is a problem, treat the addiction instead of treating welfare recipients as children. How pissed would you be if your employer dictated how you spent your wages because certain activities went against their beliefs. No donating to your local church because they believe religion is silly and their employees shouldn’t be wasting money on such things. People would be pissed. An extreme example I know but helps get the point across, but same could also be said about any vice we partake in. Coming from a shitty childhood myself such things were often brought up and implemented poorly which tbh actually hurt us as kids growing up. Yeah a few will exploit what ever system that’s put into place, you have only got to look at most tax systems to see that, but you don’t punish the many just because of the few. But just a bit further down the article > Mothers have a choice between taking the box, or a cash grant, currently set at 140 euros, but 95% opt for the box as it's worth much more. Bulk ordering and a fairly consistent birth rate will mean the government are not paying retail for these items so the box can be worth more than straight cash even if the cost of the government per box is close to the cash grant but gives an incentive to parents take higher value to them option. Sorry for the rant, it just pisses me off having been though it. EDIT: Also lack of coffee, I'm grumpy without coffee :-P
• mikewarot 5y ago
  Here in the US we had a special high strength box that allowed our child to sleep between us when warranted, it was strong enough to keep us from rolling over accidents.
  • divbzero 5y ago
    Was this special box something you purchased or something you put together yourself?
    • mikewarot 5y ago
      It was over a decade ago, and google fails me. Sorry.
• shifty1 5y ago
  Scotland also has a very similar baby box, introduced a few years ago due to the success of the Finnish one. https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box Content of the box: https://www.parentclub.scot/baby-box https://www.parentclub.scot/baby-box Study on impact of the box: https://www.gov.scot/publications/baby-box-evaluation/pages/5/ https://www.gov.scot/publications/baby-box-evaluation/pages/...
  • test1235 5y ago
    We got a one of these in Scotland, and I have to say a few years on, we're only just getting rid of the last of the items. Some items were arguably more useful than others (but I think the inventory is reviewed and updated constantly) - we never used the baby box as intended and it could be argued that we never really needed the support, but I can't understand the people who would argue against such an initiative. People in this country were up in arms when this was first suggested ... bristling with the absolute indignity at the thought of money being spent to help others.
    • iso1631 5y ago
      > People in this country were up in arms when this was first suggested ... bristling with the absolute indignity at the thought of money being spent to help others. Really? At General Elections Scotland tends to vote dramatically in favour of parties that do redistribution, far more than the rest of the UK
      • daleharvey 5y ago
        The people who were up in arms about it lose heavily in the elections however given that they are generally unionists they are given extremely generous coverage by our media who are are almost entirely pro union. I also got one of these in Scotland and found it very reassuring and helpful, you could see almost all the other children around were using the same clothes / toys etc.
        • iso1631 5y ago
• rich_sasha 5y ago
  I’m perpetually amazed how well Finland is ran. It’s just a country with its shit frozen together. It’s a particular comparison point for me, as it has a similar (vaguely) recent history to Poland, having regained its independence in 1918, and living in Russia’s shadow most of that time. The difficult, exploitative years under the Russian thumb are usually blamed for most of the mess in Poland right now. Clearly there is another way.
  • burntoutfire 5y ago
    At least four factors differentiate the two: 1. Finland had only one scary and ravenous empire near its border. Poland had two: Russia and Germany/Prussia, or even three, if you count the Austro-Hungarians. 2. Finland is much easier to defend. 3. Finland was a free, market-based country since WWII, whereas Poland had to implement the insane communist policies. So, essentially Finland had a 45-year head start over Poland in building free society and economy. 4. Finland is much less populous. It's much easier to bring wealth via industrialization to a country of 5 millions than to country of 38 millions.
    • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
      Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire, but only one year under communist rule. Poland spent 50 years under the communists. Two generations of brain washing and negative selection.
      • fsloth 5y ago
        "Finland spent many years as part of Russian Empire" Yes - and no. Legally Finland was a Grand Duchy, under the direct ownership of the Czar (who was the duke of Finland) - hence Finland was not actually part of the Russian state, even though it had the same head of state, but had parallel autonomous state functions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Finland At the end of 19th century Russian state started to abhor this autonomy, but actual dissolution of the independent state did not have time to take place before the Russian revolution. As czar died with no obvious inheritors, Finland guessed it was now independent and the Soviet state acknowledged it as such. So Finland became independent from a luck of legalese basically, and the fact that Soviet state had other problems to deal with than a small parcel of land. The blood price for independence was paid later in civil war and in 2nd world war.
• divbzero 5y ago
  Finnbin [1] is a company that sold Finnish style baby boxes in the US up until July 2021. Oddly enough, they appear to have suspended operations due to a US Consumer Product Safety Commission ruling that effectively bans baby boxes. [1]: https://www.finnbin.com/ https://www.finnbin.com/ [2]: https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operations https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operatio...
  • stevehawk 5y ago
    It appears that the CPSC in the US has decided that it's safer for babies to sleep in objects that can be tipped over (must have legs) than in a box on the ground.
    • sgerenser 5y ago
      I’m sure the issue is actually that most people don’t want it on the ground, they want it up higher where it’s easier to see, change, and interact with the baby. So people were probably placing the box onto tables, shelves, etc. where the risk of it falling off were deemed too high.
  • systemBuilder 5y ago
    CPSC has always been a way to get your chief competitor's products banned! Good old fashioned American corruption!
• leobg 5y ago
  I actually built an Aircrib, B.F. Skinner style. Basically, a wooden baby box on wheels, raised to eye level, and with heat and humidity control.
• leokennis 5y ago
  On the same subject, I only recently came to know that "Kraamzorg" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraamzorg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraamzorg) is not or hardly offered in other countries. When you become parents (whether that is for the first or the nth time), a specialized nurse will visit your home for 24-80 hours spread over multiple days to help with anything required. If it's your first, she/he will mainly focus on teaching (how to bathe a baby, how to give breastfeeding etc.). If it's your second or more, the focus will be more on keeping the house tidy (vacuuming, cleaning up) and helping with the older kids (getting them from school etc.). And all the while, the kraamzorger will keep a log of the baby (weight, temperature, how often it poops and pees etc.) to make sure it's healthy. Seriously, I don't know how I would have handled having my first newborn without the hands-on-live-counseling kraamzorg provides.
  • InsomniacL 5y ago
    Apparently in America it can cost tens of thousands of dollars to give birth in a hospital. Also, 'skin-on-skin' contact after giving birth is a chargeable extra. We don't know how fortunate we are here in the UK with the NHS.
    • hellbannedguy 5y ago
    • zthrowaway 5y ago
      > Also, 'skin-on-skin' contact after giving birth is a chargeable extra. Just had a kid in the US, not true. I’m curious to see where you learned this from, it seems hyperbolic. Also, it cost me $2k after all was said and done.
      • ix101 5y ago
        https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37555048 https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37555048
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
• bigbassroller 5y ago
  They had this in SF via The Baby Box Co, but sadly they seem to be no longer around. It was nice having a nice colorful happy box to keep new born in. Here is an article about what it was https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/baby-box-co-launches-universal-safe-sleep-program-in-san-francisco-as-first-step-to-help-families-decrease-infant-mortality-and-save-babies-lives-300361856.html https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/baby-box-co-launche...
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• kristofferR 5y ago
  Baby boxes are apparently going to be banned in the US Summer 2022 because they don't have legs. https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operations https://www.finnbin.com/blogs/news/finnbin-suspends-operatio...
• systemBuilder 5y ago
  If I am reading the graph of infant mortality in Finland correctly their rate is 2 per thousand children and the USA rate is 6deaths per 1000! Maybe we should write to Biden and get cpsc crooked rules revoked and start giving out baby boxes? Medical Xpress: U.S. infant mortality reached historic low in 2019. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-12-infant-mortality-historic.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-12-infant-mortality-hist...
• mattlondon 5y ago
  We paid for a Finnish style box here in the UK. Baby fairly rapidly outgrew it with 3 months or so, but not before he started to wake us up by hitting his arms on the side and making a thumping noise. We were warned by some pros to make sure to monitor the temperature closely - don't leave it on the floor where it might be too cold, and allow air to circulate to avoid it getting too hot etc. We bought a cheap Ikea side-table that was approx the same size and built a basic barrier around the edge by screwing in some shelf supports to the side-table (as well as some up-stands on the table surface to allow air to circulate) so that it was basically like any other bassinet thing you can buy. Price-wise we probably mad a loss compared to just buying something prebuilt, but I think my wife quite liked me "building a bed for baby". The box is now used as a toy box! We'll certainly get another one for the next baby.