7 ms·

I'm in Santiago, Chile right now. It was hopping. So much optimism on the streets. People partied and chanted and honked until 3AM. I'm jealous of the people of

I'm in Santiago, Chile right now. It was hopping. So much optimism on the streets. People partied and chanted and honked until 3AM. I'm jealous of the people of Chile to be able to look at their country and see hope.

GameOfFrowns 5y ago
>I'm jealous of the people of Chile to be able to look at their country and see hope. Just like the Venezuelans before them did. Those are not cheering anymore for their Bolivarian revolution.
- CyanBird 5y ago
  If you'd like to see them chant again then just lift the sanctions, same with Lebanon, or Iran, any nation will buckle under the siege of economic warfare even more so nations which have fragility on their system such as these social inclined ones
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  On one hand, if you compare Venezuela to another oil-rich state Norway, and the difference in their economic results, what stands out is that Norway was very conservative with their national state oil fund, while Venezuela under Chavez was pretty liberal with using those funds to buy regional political backing (note 'conservative and liberal' here just refers to spending policy). The collapse in the price of oil in 2008-2009 thus had a far more crippling effect on Venezuela's economy compared to Norway's. On the other hand, Norway has not been subjected to the same kind of crippling economic sanctions that the USA has applied to Venezuela and it's an open question as to what would have happened to Norway's economy under those circumstances.
  - pydry 5y ago
    Norway is completely atypical for an oil rich country. Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Nigeria - these are the baseline for what you can expect if your economy is dominated by oil exports. Norway is interesting insofar as it is exceptional for not turning into a basket case.
    - pjbk 5y ago
      Norway is a small, educated, oil-lucky, well managed "socialist" country whose welfare backbone is a fiercely protected sovereign fund that relies on diversified investments in the capitalisms of the world and thus their correct outer and inner-workings.
  - pjbk 5y ago
    Having several Cuban and Venezuelan friends and acquaintances (I'm a Chilean living in Florida), it's interesting to become aware of the real dynamics that happen under sanctions in these countries. The sanctions are mostly political in nature but in the case of Cuba it didn't stop imports from operating. I realized this early during flyovers over Cuba and watching the numerous cargo ships and small vessels going in and out of ports and docks. A cousin of one of my colleagues at work in Miami spent his weekends making deliveries of goods that eventually made to the island. He only got in trouble with the Coast Guard when one time he was bringing back some folks that wanted to illegally immigrate to the US using the special laws they have for people fleeing the island. They told him if they ever find out he was doing it again they would confiscate his boat and face prison time. After Obama restrictions have been lifted further. The sad thing is that only the people related to the party are the ones able to afford most of the stuff traded in the black market, or plainly are the main contacts importing illegal goods. If you are a common citizen your only option is to become something like a bartender in a tourist hotel, which essentially makes you close to products like food, liquor and electronics that have sanction exemptions that you can illegally buy and trade in the black market. BTW, when they explained me this 10 years ago the going entry "price" to become a bartender was over 10k USD, several lifetime salaries of many people in Cuba. Therefore as you can imagine this translates in lots of corruption and the only people that gets affected by sanctions in reality is the common man. Venezuela is no different. I once met some young Venezuelans whose dad was a military general in the country. All his family was lavishly living and studying in Miami. Somebody else told me that after Chavez there has never been so many high rank officials, all essentially millionaires, that protect that part of Venezuela's ruling class that aligned with the regime. If they used to be rich, like in the Russia after the perestroika now they practically own the country. Just browse in YouTube all the videos of people that visit the Caracas luxury malls, fully stocked supermarkets and fast food restaurants. A common person needs to work a full week to be able to buy a McDonald's meal. To guard critical infrastructure facilities and gas stations they have a special police that in practice has a license to kill.
- ngokevin 5y ago
  Country A cheered decades ago and is now not doing well; Country B (the most modern of LatAm) is cheering after an election therefore they will not do well? RIP to every country then.
  - pjbk 5y ago
    I wouldn't generalize. Every country is different and also countries and conditions change in time. Although Chile was also cheering back in 1970 and we all know how that turned out.
- pydry 5y ago
  Venezuela went south after the 2001 coup. The only real prerequisite for the country falling apart was factional infighting over oil. It's not any different to half of Africa (often with diamonds). Though if you ask American investors and their various mouthpieces theyll tell you it was all socialism. Chile has a similar problem but they are lucky to have an economy that is not quite as dominated by natural resources.

GameOfFrowns 5y ago

>I'm jealous of the people of Chile to be able to look at their country and see hope. Just like the Venezuelans before them did. Those are not cheering anymore for their Bolivarian revolution.

CyanBird 5y ago
If you'd like to see them chant again then just lift the sanctions, same with Lebanon, or Iran, any nation will buckle under the siege of economic warfare even more so nations which have fragility on their system such as these social inclined ones
photochemsyn 5y ago
On one hand, if you compare Venezuela to another oil-rich state Norway, and the difference in their economic results, what stands out is that Norway was very conservative with their national state oil fund, while Venezuela under Chavez was pretty liberal with using those funds to buy regional political backing (note 'conservative and liberal' here just refers to spending policy). The collapse in the price of oil in 2008-2009 thus had a far more crippling effect on Venezuela's economy compared to Norway's. On the other hand, Norway has not been subjected to the same kind of crippling economic sanctions that the USA has applied to Venezuela and it's an open question as to what would have happened to Norway's economy under those circumstances.
- pydry 5y ago
  Norway is completely atypical for an oil rich country. Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Russia, Nigeria - these are the baseline for what you can expect if your economy is dominated by oil exports. Norway is interesting insofar as it is exceptional for not turning into a basket case.
  - pjbk 5y ago
    Norway is a small, educated, oil-lucky, well managed "socialist" country whose welfare backbone is a fiercely protected sovereign fund that relies on diversified investments in the capitalisms of the world and thus their correct outer and inner-workings.
- pjbk 5y ago
  Having several Cuban and Venezuelan friends and acquaintances (I'm a Chilean living in Florida), it's interesting to become aware of the real dynamics that happen under sanctions in these countries. The sanctions are mostly political in nature but in the case of Cuba it didn't stop imports from operating. I realized this early during flyovers over Cuba and watching the numerous cargo ships and small vessels going in and out of ports and docks. A cousin of one of my colleagues at work in Miami spent his weekends making deliveries of goods that eventually made to the island. He only got in trouble with the Coast Guard when one time he was bringing back some folks that wanted to illegally immigrate to the US using the special laws they have for people fleeing the island. They told him if they ever find out he was doing it again they would confiscate his boat and face prison time. After Obama restrictions have been lifted further. The sad thing is that only the people related to the party are the ones able to afford most of the stuff traded in the black market, or plainly are the main contacts importing illegal goods. If you are a common citizen your only option is to become something like a bartender in a tourist hotel, which essentially makes you close to products like food, liquor and electronics that have sanction exemptions that you can illegally buy and trade in the black market. BTW, when they explained me this 10 years ago the going entry "price" to become a bartender was over 10k USD, several lifetime salaries of many people in Cuba. Therefore as you can imagine this translates in lots of corruption and the only people that gets affected by sanctions in reality is the common man. Venezuela is no different. I once met some young Venezuelans whose dad was a military general in the country. All his family was lavishly living and studying in Miami. Somebody else told me that after Chavez there has never been so many high rank officials, all essentially millionaires, that protect that part of Venezuela's ruling class that aligned with the regime. If they used to be rich, like in the Russia after the perestroika now they practically own the country. Just browse in YouTube all the videos of people that visit the Caracas luxury malls, fully stocked supermarkets and fast food restaurants. A common person needs to work a full week to be able to buy a McDonald's meal. To guard critical infrastructure facilities and gas stations they have a special police that in practice has a license to kill.
ngokevin 5y ago
Country A cheered decades ago and is now not doing well; Country B (the most modern of LatAm) is cheering after an election therefore they will not do well? RIP to every country then.
- pjbk 5y ago
  I wouldn't generalize. Every country is different and also countries and conditions change in time. Although Chile was also cheering back in 1970 and we all know how that turned out.
pydry 5y ago
Venezuela went south after the 2001 coup. The only real prerequisite for the country falling apart was factional infighting over oil. It's not any different to half of Africa (often with diamonds). Though if you ask American investors and their various mouthpieces theyll tell you it was all socialism. Chile has a similar problem but they are lucky to have an economy that is not quite as dominated by natural resources.