12 ms·

Before ‘Dune,’ Frank Herbert learned from native Americans

115 points by Thevet 5y ago

EarlKing 5y ago
> How Is ‘Dune’ So Prescient About Climate Change? It isn't. Arrakis suffered desertification before humans ever arrived, before the book even began. The only climate change that occurred thereafter was a direct result of Pardot Kynes convincing the Fremen they could terraform Arrakis and, after Paul Atreides defeated the Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino and seized control of the Imperium, and subsequently began a deliberate effort to accelerate the terraforming effort until, by the time of God Emperor of Dune, the desert has been pushed back to just a tiny portion of the planet. TL;DR The entire article is someone with an axe to grind trying to use Dune to do it. Scroll on.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  The prescience of the book in regards to climate change doesn't lie in the fact that it's some sort of literal retelling of the climate science of earth (hint, it's an allergorical piece of fiction) it lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. Firstly, the immense influence of humanity on climate and the ecology of a planet and the intertwined nature between social activity and ecology, the motivation for negative impacts on the ecology lying in the exploitation and overuse of the planets resources, and third the disproportionate impact of this on native populations, and the inability of people to understand the consequences of disturbing complex systems. (no surprise given that Herbert was intellectually close to systems thinkers from Santa Fe) You think Dune does not address climate change because in the story the planet was already deserted? Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs?
  - mr_toad 5y ago
    > lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. If FH really wanted to write about ecology he could have spend a much greater proportion of the brook talking about it, when all we have on Sandworm ecology from FH himself is a handful of paragraphs spread across six novels. As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. Lastly, if we’re looking at FH books on the human impact on ecology, we should start with The Green Brain which was explicitly about ecology.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      >As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin .. which are the native population of Arrakis as nomadic desert people are the native populations of their respective region, being caught in the feud of great colonial powers of the empire? The inspiration for this are indeed Bedouin, some people argue Berber and of course Arab people and FH explicitly stated that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the book, which seems pretty obvious.
      - mr_toad 5y ago
        I’d debate the extent that they were ‘caught’ in the feud. The imperial powers barely ventured into the desert. They had barely any contact with the true Fremen. Most of Arrakis was unexplored and considered uninhabitable. Similarly it’s difficult to see the Bedouin and Berber tribes as being oppressed . The Romans, Persians etc mostly stuck to the coasts and rivers and avoided the deep desert. The same is true on Dune. When the Muslim armies swept out of the desert they didn’t throw off oppression, they came out of nowhere to crush the Persians and nearly end the Romans, establishing one of the world’s largest empires. They did plenty of colonisation of their own. And their cultural and scientific impact on the world continues today. Similarly the Fremen were grossly underestimated by the Empire. They were barely aware of their existence, but as it turned out they were far more numerous, culturally sophisticated and technology advanced than anyone knew.
    - slavik81 5y ago
      > They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. I've never been able to find this quote again, but IIRC after one of his friends/editors read some of his early work on Dune, they told him something to the effect of, "Dammit, Frank. People want to read stories about people!" It may be that he doesn't spend much ink on them because it didn't make for a captivating story.
    - mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
      > As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. They're very heavily based off of the people who lived in the Caucasus. Herbert basically lifts phrasing used in the book The Sabres of Paradise to describe the Fremen word for word
  - EarlKing 5y ago
    - bananamerica 5y ago
      I'm not sure Frank Herbert would agree with you. https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00
      - EarlKing 5y ago
        Good links both, but in both cases he never expresses or implies his works are allegorical. He's quite clear in both of these links why he wrote. In the first one he states his point was: "Don't trust leaders to always be right." He expands on that in the second: "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'may be dangerous to your health'. I mean I think the most dangerous president we've had or one of the most dangerous at least, not because he was a bad guy but because people didn't question him... one of the most dangerous presidents that we've had in this century was Jack Kennedy because people said 'Yes sir, Mr. Charismatic leader, what'll we do next?' And we wound up in Vietnam. People don't realize that he was one of the major moving forces getting us into Vietnam." And further: "And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon because he taught us to distrust government... and he did it by example... which is the best kind of teaching." He openly talks about wanting to know why people drank the koo-aid or said Sieg Heil and murdered Jews and Gypsies... but at no time does he say his work was allegorical. These were simply ideas he wanted to convey in his work. It's funny, though... at around the 30:00 mark in that second link there was someone very offended at his writing of gay characters, saying that his writing of them would only lead to violence against gays. His response was insightful, truthful, and pure comedy gold... but the kid seemed very disturbed. He, like some in this thread, seemed to read into the book what he wanted to read, and was incensed when no one else agreed with him. :D One last note: That second link was almost certainly a great talk, but the UCLA's recording is clearly damaged. The recording cuts out so much that it is extremely aggravating to try to listen to it.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs? I read many books in the "Freddy the Pig" series, and picked up Animal Farm when I was 8. I thought it, too, was a book about pigs and read it as a book about pigs. I can vouch that it works as a story about pigs. I didn't realize it was an allegory until maybe a decade later. I also read Dune as a teen, and took it at face value, too. It was a moderately good scifi book, but not good enough to tempt me to read the sequels. I didn't really think much more about it. I've read a lot of scifi books. It also seemed to be much more based on Saharan desert culture than Native American culture. I confess to being out of step in not seeing it as a great story :-/ I've seen all 3 movie versions, thinking "what am I missing" and not finding it.
    - mhh__ 5y ago
      I think the thing with Dune is that it has a really strong litmus test to it i.e. if you find the setting interesting then it's a really interesting world, whereas if you don't it can seem quite arbitrary and (I guess) odd. I'm not sure exactly what to put my finger on but the melting pot of culture and religion explicit throughout the book, wrapped in a psychedelic haze is definitely a draw for me. It's definitely more of a below-the-neck type of experience vs. (say) a Dick novel. Wrt to the new movie I'm just glad that Denis Villeneuve is getting funded. His sci-fi movies are some of the only big movies in and around the genre (especially if you compare (say) Dune to star wars) which seem to be actively trying to tell a story at their own pace. He's a very smart and unpretentious person too, any interview with him is a much watch for me.
      - yongjik 5y ago
        Until about a third of the movie, I was thinking "This is how they should have made a Star Wars film! Why couldn't they make one like this?" ...and then of course I stopped thinking of Star Wars altogether. :)
        mhh__ 5y ago
        Just wait for the Dune Cinematic Universe
  - Karishma1234fff 5y ago
    Well, all civilizations are full of stories of men waging war on oceans, burning down forests to reclaim lands, breaking mountains and all the wageries of such things. Dune was neither the first nor is the last and linking it with climate change is purely some kind of bias.
- Amezarak 5y ago
  The desertification of Dune was caused by ancient settlers introducing the sandtrout. > "The sandtrout ... was introduced here from some other place. This was a wet planet then. They proliferated beyond the capability of existing ecosystems to deal with them. Sandtrout encysted the available free water, made this a desert planet ... and they did it to survive. In a planet sufficiently dry, they could move to their sandworm phase." This is from Children of Dune.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    So Dune itself was not prescient but Children of Dune was, however that was probably written at nearly the same time. That said, what purpose did the sandtrout serve in that other place it was introduced from, I guess the early settlers weren't looking at the planet and thinking "nice place, but too wet."
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      Hypothetical: The original planet had more natural barriers for the sandtrout and sandworms so that they wouldn't spread globally, or they had natural predators. A too wet world that could (for the settlers) benefit from aridification of a region isn't outrageous, think about constructing dams and levies to create more dry land. Or could just be someone being stupid, like how kudzu has spread throughout the US Southeast.
      - JetAlone 5y ago
        They say the vine is eating the south, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_powder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_powder ...Maybe Southeastern US chefs are creative enough to come up with a truly unique and delicious way to bite back?
      - cgriswald 5y ago
        The sandtrout were overrunning the place they came to Arrakis from as well, IIRC from Children of Dune. The real answer to the GP’s question is that if you squeeze a sandtrout you get basically a concentrated dose of the spice.
- esturk 5y ago
  Does HackerNews have any rules against Spoilers? This message will spoil a lot of fans who just started the series after watching the movie.
vmception 5y ago
> and Mr. Herbert had close contacts among the Quileute and Hoh peoples of the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State I think headlines and articles should refer to the specific peoples, I'm of the view that we need to normalize mentioning the specific people/tribes/collectives because its overinclusive since all them are separate. Its not really weighed by a random indigenous person saying "I'm fine with Indian" or "I'm fine with First Nations" etc, its more about how it doesn't provide any context for people with 100s of years of shared history, many of which have semi-sovereignty and autonomy.
- imapeopleperson 5y ago
  We all need this. I did a DNA test and found I’m mixed European from at least 15 different backgrounds..tired of just being called ‘white’.
  - aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
    Well, back in Europe we don’t call ourselves “white” :]
    - edgyquant 5y ago
      While not entirely the case, white as an ethnic group is mostly a new world thing that has seeped back to the old world. White also is a large group with individuals a lot wouldn’t think of as white E.g. most ethnicity questionnaires label white as the descendants of the original Europeans and North Africans.
      - burntoutfire 5y ago
        > E.g. most ethnicity questionnaires label white as the descendants of the original Europeans and North Africans. So, for example Arabs and Berbers count as white in the US??
        vmception 5y ago
photochemsyn 5y ago
First of all any article referencing Brian Herbert as an authority on Dune is suspect as a result. Those atrocious fanfiction additions are best used as cat litter box liner, period. Secondly, if you read the Appendices of Book I of Frank Herbert's Dune series, you'll see that he more or less invented the concept of 'planetologist', which in the late 1990s became a recognized academic discipline under the umbrellas of 'planetary sciences' and 'earth system sciences'. This was in response to a sense that the academic study of the subject had been too fractured, i.e. disciplines such as oceanography, geology, ecology and atmospheric chemistry and physics were actually highly interrelated, to the point that the historic divisions didn't make as much sense as they once did. This is now seen in, for example, the scientific study of Jupiter's moon Europa. As far as the current impacts of human civilization on Earth's climate and ecology, see the original Dune book: > "The thing the ecologically illiterate don’t realize about an ecosystem is that it’s a system. A system! A system maintains a certain fluid stability that can be destroyed by a misstep in just one niche. A system has order, a flowing from point to point. If something dams the flow, order collapses. The untrained might miss that collapse until it was too late. That’s why the highest function of ecology is the understanding of consequences - Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune" Finally, am I the only sick of these stereotypical images of 'native indigenous cultures living in simple harmony with nature' a la Avatar? One real refreshing aspect of the film and the book is that the Fremen were often more technologically advanced than offworlders, having superior stillsuits and so on, and they had their own long-term agenda - i.e. slowly terraforming the planet to make it more suitable for human life. Note also that the infantilization of native cultures was often used as a justification for enforcing 'civilization' on them, as well. Enough already, they were people with goals just like all other peoples.
- rgrieselhuber 5y ago
  One question I’d ask is why there would be an inherent conflict between superior technology and harmony with nature?
  - noisy_boy 5y ago
    I think that with sufficiently advanced technology, there would be immense understanding of nature resulting in elimination of any need to be in conflict with the nature because one would simply solve their needs by enveloping or integrating with nature instead of going against it.
fidesomnes 5y ago
IgorPartola 5y ago
Dune is the most confusing book series I have ever read. My introduction to Dune was via Dune II and eventually Dune 1 video games, and I thought the setting was amazing and very well thought out. Then I read the first book and was thoroughly confused: Paul is a Superman, but supermen are bad? Except nowhere in the book does it imply that. It reads like a teenager’a superhero fantasy novel. And the world building that is lauded for being so sophisticated? It just feels off. For one, there are tens of thousands of habitable planets but all the action takes place on only four. Second, there is the Landsraad but we focus on just three factions. Third, the entire empire relies on spice, yet spice comes from a single planet and they never bothered to figure out why or how it’s made? Moreover instead of the emperor directly controlling spice production (the most valuable substance in the galaxy and the source of ultimate control) he outsources the job to a noble house that is sure to betray him sooner or later. Paul is of course considered a genius for figuring this out, but like how could you not see this coming from page 1? And then there are the sequels. The second book is confusing as all hell because suddenly there is the great Jihad except we don’t really know why it’s happening, to whom, and who is winning. And Paul is now an emo kid who is both too wise and not wise enough. He can’t stop the Jihad so he does some stuff that he foresaw but makes no sense. The Children of Dune at least brings things back out of the abstract “you are too dumb to understand just how vast the world is so I won’t bother describing it to you”. But it’s a story with a middle and not really a beginning or an end. I didn’t manage to get further than this book. I really wanted to like Dune. But I have no idea what I am missing. Did I have to read it as a 15 year old to really get into it? Is there some cultural thing I’m missing? Is it just overhyped?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- int_19h 5y ago
  The narrow locality is intentional. Remember, this is "feudalism in space", with many things - like shields - deliberately contrived to make it somewhat plausible. A very important part of the resulting arrangement of society is how static it is, not just in abstract matters like social structure, but also very literally in movement of people. The vast majority in this universe never leave their own planets, simply because they don't have access to space travel at all. Regarding the Emperor not controlling the spice production directly - that's because it's part of their customary power balancing arrangement. If the Emperor controlled the spice directly, it would give him the ability to control space travel for all the Landsraad Great Houses, upsetting the balance of power between the two. The Houses can overpower the Emperor with military force, but only if they all join forces - and this is exactly the action that would trigger such an alliance. The other aspect is access to profits: the whole point of CHOAM is to distribute wealth from interplanetary trade to the Emperor and the Houses, which is why it has a monopoly on trade. Again, the Houses simply cannot afford to lose that much profit while having the Emperor gain it (and use it to increase his military strength). I agree that it's very strange how origin of spice is such a mystery, given that every Fremen knows about it.
5tefan 5y ago
I liked 'Dune' and read it as a teen. Haven't managed to read all the rest. The last book still missing. Also 'Dune' but much more so the others are choke full of religious stuff. A difficult read and the reason I shy away from the last book. But I liked 'Dune' a lot.
brodouevencode 5y ago
https://archive.md/kaCjc https://archive.md/kaCjc

115 points by Thevet 5y ago

> How Is ‘Dune’ So Prescient About Climate Change? It isn't. Arrakis suffered desertification before humans ever arrived, before the book even began. The only climate change that occurred thereafter was a direct result of Pardot Kynes convincing the Fremen they could terraform Arrakis and, after Paul Atreides defeated the Emperor Shaddam IV Corrino and seized control of the Imperium, and subsequently began a deliberate effort to accelerate the terraforming effort until, by the time of God Emperor of Dune, the desert has been pushed back to just a tiny portion of the planet. TL;DR The entire article is someone with an axe to grind trying to use Dune to do it. Scroll on.

Barrin92 5y ago
The prescience of the book in regards to climate change doesn't lie in the fact that it's some sort of literal retelling of the climate science of earth (hint, it's an allergorical piece of fiction) it lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. Firstly, the immense influence of humanity on climate and the ecology of a planet and the intertwined nature between social activity and ecology, the motivation for negative impacts on the ecology lying in the exploitation and overuse of the planets resources, and third the disproportionate impact of this on native populations, and the inability of people to understand the consequences of disturbing complex systems. (no surprise given that Herbert was intellectually close to systems thinkers from Santa Fe) You think Dune does not address climate change because in the story the planet was already deserted? Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs?
- mr_toad 5y ago
  > lies in the fact that the book recognizes three key aspects. They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. If FH really wanted to write about ecology he could have spend a much greater proportion of the brook talking about it, when all we have on Sandworm ecology from FH himself is a handful of paragraphs spread across six novels. As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. Lastly, if we’re looking at FH books on the human impact on ecology, we should start with The Green Brain which was explicitly about ecology.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    >As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin .. which are the native population of Arrakis as nomadic desert people are the native populations of their respective region, being caught in the feud of great colonial powers of the empire? The inspiration for this are indeed Bedouin, some people argue Berber and of course Arab people and FH explicitly stated that Lawrence of Arabia was an inspiration for the book, which seems pretty obvious.
    - mr_toad 5y ago
      I’d debate the extent that they were ‘caught’ in the feud. The imperial powers barely ventured into the desert. They had barely any contact with the true Fremen. Most of Arrakis was unexplored and considered uninhabitable. Similarly it’s difficult to see the Bedouin and Berber tribes as being oppressed . The Romans, Persians etc mostly stuck to the coasts and rivers and avoided the deep desert. The same is true on Dune. When the Muslim armies swept out of the desert they didn’t throw off oppression, they came out of nowhere to crush the Persians and nearly end the Romans, establishing one of the world’s largest empires. They did plenty of colonisation of their own. And their cultural and scientific impact on the world continues today. Similarly the Fremen were grossly underestimated by the Empire. They were barely aware of their existence, but as it turned out they were far more numerous, culturally sophisticated and technology advanced than anyone knew.
  - slavik81 5y ago
    > They weren’t central to the story. FH didn’t waste a lot of ink on them. They formed a backdrop to the story because they should be uncontroversial ideas to anyone with an understanding of ecology. I've never been able to find this quote again, but IIRC after one of his friends/editors read some of his early work on Dune, they told him something to the effect of, "Dammit, Frank. People want to read stories about people!" It may be that he doesn't spend much ink on them because it didn't make for a captivating story.
  - mecha_ghidorah 5y ago
    > As for the effect on Native populations; this wasn’t in the book at all. The Fremen are clearly based on Nomadic desert peoples like the Bedouin - people who swept to power seemingly out of nowhere and established their own sprawling Empire. They're very heavily based off of the people who lived in the Caucasus. Herbert basically lifts phrasing used in the book The Sabres of Paradise to describe the Fremen word for word
- EarlKing 5y ago
  - bananamerica 5y ago
    I'm not sure Frank Herbert would agree with you. https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/26GPaMoeiu4 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00 https://youtu.be/5IfgBX1EW00
    - EarlKing 5y ago
      Good links both, but in both cases he never expresses or implies his works are allegorical. He's quite clear in both of these links why he wrote. In the first one he states his point was: "Don't trust leaders to always be right." He expands on that in the second: "I wrote the Dune series because I had this idea that charismatic leaders ought to come with a warning label on their forehead: 'may be dangerous to your health'. I mean I think the most dangerous president we've had or one of the most dangerous at least, not because he was a bad guy but because people didn't question him... one of the most dangerous presidents that we've had in this century was Jack Kennedy because people said 'Yes sir, Mr. Charismatic leader, what'll we do next?' And we wound up in Vietnam. People don't realize that he was one of the major moving forces getting us into Vietnam." And further: "And I think probably the most valuable president of this century was Richard Nixon because he taught us to distrust government... and he did it by example... which is the best kind of teaching." He openly talks about wanting to know why people drank the koo-aid or said Sieg Heil and murdered Jews and Gypsies... but at no time does he say his work was allegorical. These were simply ideas he wanted to convey in his work. It's funny, though... at around the 30:00 mark in that second link there was someone very offended at his writing of gay characters, saying that his writing of them would only lead to violence against gays. His response was insightful, truthful, and pure comedy gold... but the kid seemed very disturbed. He, like some in this thread, seemed to read into the book what he wanted to read, and was incensed when no one else agreed with him. :D One last note: That second link was almost certainly a great talk, but the UCLA's recording is clearly damaged. The recording cuts out so much that it is extremely aggravating to try to listen to it.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > Do you think Animal Farm is a book about pigs? I read many books in the "Freddy the Pig" series, and picked up Animal Farm when I was 8. I thought it, too, was a book about pigs and read it as a book about pigs. I can vouch that it works as a story about pigs. I didn't realize it was an allegory until maybe a decade later. I also read Dune as a teen, and took it at face value, too. It was a moderately good scifi book, but not good enough to tempt me to read the sequels. I didn't really think much more about it. I've read a lot of scifi books. It also seemed to be much more based on Saharan desert culture than Native American culture. I confess to being out of step in not seeing it as a great story :-/ I've seen all 3 movie versions, thinking "what am I missing" and not finding it.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    I think the thing with Dune is that it has a really strong litmus test to it i.e. if you find the setting interesting then it's a really interesting world, whereas if you don't it can seem quite arbitrary and (I guess) odd. I'm not sure exactly what to put my finger on but the melting pot of culture and religion explicit throughout the book, wrapped in a psychedelic haze is definitely a draw for me. It's definitely more of a below-the-neck type of experience vs. (say) a Dick novel. Wrt to the new movie I'm just glad that Denis Villeneuve is getting funded. His sci-fi movies are some of the only big movies in and around the genre (especially if you compare (say) Dune to star wars) which seem to be actively trying to tell a story at their own pace. He's a very smart and unpretentious person too, any interview with him is a much watch for me.
    - yongjik 5y ago
      Until about a third of the movie, I was thinking "This is how they should have made a Star Wars film! Why couldn't they make one like this?" ...and then of course I stopped thinking of Star Wars altogether. :)
      - mhh__ 5y ago
        Just wait for the Dune Cinematic Universe
- Karishma1234fff 5y ago
  Well, all civilizations are full of stories of men waging war on oceans, burning down forests to reclaim lands, breaking mountains and all the wageries of such things. Dune was neither the first nor is the last and linking it with climate change is purely some kind of bias.
Amezarak 5y ago
The desertification of Dune was caused by ancient settlers introducing the sandtrout. > "The sandtrout ... was introduced here from some other place. This was a wet planet then. They proliferated beyond the capability of existing ecosystems to deal with them. Sandtrout encysted the available free water, made this a desert planet ... and they did it to survive. In a planet sufficiently dry, they could move to their sandworm phase." This is from Children of Dune.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  So Dune itself was not prescient but Children of Dune was, however that was probably written at nearly the same time. That said, what purpose did the sandtrout serve in that other place it was introduced from, I guess the early settlers weren't looking at the planet and thinking "nice place, but too wet."
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    Hypothetical: The original planet had more natural barriers for the sandtrout and sandworms so that they wouldn't spread globally, or they had natural predators. A too wet world that could (for the settlers) benefit from aridification of a region isn't outrageous, think about constructing dams and levies to create more dry land. Or could just be someone being stupid, like how kudzu has spread throughout the US Southeast.
    - JetAlone 5y ago
      They say the vine is eating the south, but... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_powder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu_powder ...Maybe Southeastern US chefs are creative enough to come up with a truly unique and delicious way to bite back?
    - cgriswald 5y ago
      The sandtrout were overrunning the place they came to Arrakis from as well, IIRC from Children of Dune. The real answer to the GP’s question is that if you squeeze a sandtrout you get basically a concentrated dose of the spice.
esturk 5y ago
Does HackerNews have any rules against Spoilers? This message will spoil a lot of fans who just started the series after watching the movie.

vmception 5y ago

> and Mr. Herbert had close contacts among the Quileute and Hoh peoples of the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State I think headlines and articles should refer to the specific peoples, I'm of the view that we need to normalize mentioning the specific people/tribes/collectives because its overinclusive since all them are separate. Its not really weighed by a random indigenous person saying "I'm fine with Indian" or "I'm fine with First Nations" etc, its more about how it doesn't provide any context for people with 100s of years of shared history, many of which have semi-sovereignty and autonomy.

imapeopleperson 5y ago
We all need this. I did a DNA test and found I’m mixed European from at least 15 different backgrounds..tired of just being called ‘white’.
- aaaaaaaaaaab 5y ago
  Well, back in Europe we don’t call ourselves “white” :]
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    While not entirely the case, white as an ethnic group is mostly a new world thing that has seeped back to the old world. White also is a large group with individuals a lot wouldn’t think of as white E.g. most ethnicity questionnaires label white as the descendants of the original Europeans and North Africans.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      > E.g. most ethnicity questionnaires label white as the descendants of the original Europeans and North Africans. So, for example Arabs and Berbers count as white in the US??
      - vmception 5y ago

photochemsyn 5y ago

First of all any article referencing Brian Herbert as an authority on Dune is suspect as a result. Those atrocious fanfiction additions are best used as cat litter box liner, period. Secondly, if you read the Appendices of Book I of Frank Herbert's Dune series, you'll see that he more or less invented the concept of 'planetologist', which in the late 1990s became a recognized academic discipline under the umbrellas of 'planetary sciences' and 'earth system sciences'. This was in response to a sense that the academic study of the subject had been too fractured, i.e. disciplines such as oceanography, geology, ecology and atmospheric chemistry and physics were actually highly interrelated, to the point that the historic divisions didn't make as much sense as they once did. This is now seen in, for example, the scientific study of Jupiter's moon Europa. As far as the current impacts of human civilization on Earth's climate and ecology, see the original Dune book: > "The thing the ecologically illiterate don’t realize about an ecosystem is that it’s a system. A system! A system maintains a certain fluid stability that can be destroyed by a misstep in just one niche. A system has order, a flowing from point to point. If something dams the flow, order collapses. The untrained might miss that collapse until it was too late. That’s why the highest function of ecology is the understanding of consequences - Pardot Kynes in "Appendix I: The Ecology of Dune" Finally, am I the only sick of these stereotypical images of 'native indigenous cultures living in simple harmony with nature' a la Avatar? One real refreshing aspect of the film and the book is that the Fremen were often more technologically advanced than offworlders, having superior stillsuits and so on, and they had their own long-term agenda - i.e. slowly terraforming the planet to make it more suitable for human life. Note also that the infantilization of native cultures was often used as a justification for enforcing 'civilization' on them, as well. Enough already, they were people with goals just like all other peoples.

rgrieselhuber 5y ago
One question I’d ask is why there would be an inherent conflict between superior technology and harmony with nature?
- noisy_boy 5y ago
  I think that with sufficiently advanced technology, there would be immense understanding of nature resulting in elimination of any need to be in conflict with the nature because one would simply solve their needs by enveloping or integrating with nature instead of going against it.

fidesomnes 5y ago

IgorPartola 5y ago

Dune is the most confusing book series I have ever read. My introduction to Dune was via Dune II and eventually Dune 1 video games, and I thought the setting was amazing and very well thought out. Then I read the first book and was thoroughly confused: Paul is a Superman, but supermen are bad? Except nowhere in the book does it imply that. It reads like a teenager’a superhero fantasy novel. And the world building that is lauded for being so sophisticated? It just feels off. For one, there are tens of thousands of habitable planets but all the action takes place on only four. Second, there is the Landsraad but we focus on just three factions. Third, the entire empire relies on spice, yet spice comes from a single planet and they never bothered to figure out why or how it’s made? Moreover instead of the emperor directly controlling spice production (the most valuable substance in the galaxy and the source of ultimate control) he outsources the job to a noble house that is sure to betray him sooner or later. Paul is of course considered a genius for figuring this out, but like how could you not see this coming from page 1? And then there are the sequels. The second book is confusing as all hell because suddenly there is the great Jihad except we don’t really know why it’s happening, to whom, and who is winning. And Paul is now an emo kid who is both too wise and not wise enough. He can’t stop the Jihad so he does some stuff that he foresaw but makes no sense. The Children of Dune at least brings things back out of the abstract “you are too dumb to understand just how vast the world is so I won’t bother describing it to you”. But it’s a story with a middle and not really a beginning or an end. I didn’t manage to get further than this book. I really wanted to like Dune. But I have no idea what I am missing. Did I have to read it as a 15 year old to really get into it? Is there some cultural thing I’m missing? Is it just overhyped?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
int_19h 5y ago
The narrow locality is intentional. Remember, this is "feudalism in space", with many things - like shields - deliberately contrived to make it somewhat plausible. A very important part of the resulting arrangement of society is how static it is, not just in abstract matters like social structure, but also very literally in movement of people. The vast majority in this universe never leave their own planets, simply because they don't have access to space travel at all. Regarding the Emperor not controlling the spice production directly - that's because it's part of their customary power balancing arrangement. If the Emperor controlled the spice directly, it would give him the ability to control space travel for all the Landsraad Great Houses, upsetting the balance of power between the two. The Houses can overpower the Emperor with military force, but only if they all join forces - and this is exactly the action that would trigger such an alliance. The other aspect is access to profits: the whole point of CHOAM is to distribute wealth from interplanetary trade to the Emperor and the Houses, which is why it has a monopoly on trade. Again, the Houses simply cannot afford to lose that much profit while having the Emperor gain it (and use it to increase his military strength). I agree that it's very strange how origin of spice is such a mystery, given that every Fremen knows about it.

5tefan 5y ago

I liked 'Dune' and read it as a teen. Haven't managed to read all the rest. The last book still missing. Also 'Dune' but much more so the others are choke full of religious stuff. A difficult read and the reason I shy away from the last book. But I liked 'Dune' a lot.

brodouevencode 5y ago

https://archive.md/kaCjc https://archive.md/kaCjc