6 ms·

Witnessing people going into a store and taking stuff feels dangerous, very wild west, and it seems symbolic of a decaying social order. I know that's an ill de

by slibhb 5y ago

Witnessing people going into a store and taking stuff feels dangerous, very wild west, and it seems symbolic of a decaying social order. I know that's an ill defined complaint but I suppose I trust my gut more than "eh in dollar terms it's a write off".

iszomer 5y ago
- forgotmyoldacc 5y ago
  That's not what banality of evil means: "evil acts are not necessarily perpetrated by evil people. Instead, they can simply be the result of bureaucrats dutifully obeying orders".
  - iszomer 5y ago
    How are store owners "allowing" their stores to be looted not considered as such, in relation to not prosecuting thefts under $950 by state law?
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
There was a smash and grab this weekend at a jewelry store in a large, crowded mall in Austin, TX, which resulted in a lockdown because people mistakenly thought there were gunshots. I was surprised at the sheer brazenness of the theft - the jewelry store is basically smack dab in the middle of the mall, and the theft occurred during a crowded Sat evening, so it's not like the thieves were attempting to get out undetected. What many people are reacting to is the clear belief by thieves that they won't be confronted or significantly prosecuted, and that breakdown in the social fabric is what many people are reacting to.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  That happened to me five years ago in Montreal, in a crowded Saturday evening. It's really not something new
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    What's new is the frequency of it.
    - michaelbuckbee 5y ago
      I guess that's the thing though, is the frequency of occurrence up or is the frequency with which these events are recorded up?
      - i_like_apis 5y ago
        The frequency and scale has been increasing. Walgreens is closing stores in SF. And the flashmob smash-and-grab trend is newer, it is criminals organizing on social platforms like instagram.
        mcphage 5y ago
        > Walgreens is closing stores in SF. Having seen a bunch of HN articles about Walgreens closing stores in SF, is this a SF phenomenon? Or even a SF Walgreens phenomenon? It feels a little weird to see lots of people drawing national conclusions from a situation which doesn't feel national.
        i_like_apis 5y ago
        I didn't mean to draw national conclusions. Regionally in the SF Bay Area, the frequency and scale of shoplifting and smash-and-grab is definitely increased.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
santoshalper 5y ago
If it comes down to data or your gut, trust the data. Your gut is an emotional manipulator.
- berberous 5y ago
  If many people shoplift an item here and there, versus come in as a gang of 20 and steal items by the garbage bag, even if the $ values are equal, the latter is qualitatively different and has lasting effects that the former does not and may not immediately be apparent in the data collected
- bjt2n3904 5y ago
  And data is pure, unbiased, and accurately reflects the matter at hand!
- seneca 5y ago
  > If it comes down to data or your gut, trust the data. Your gut is an emotional manipulator. I don't disagree with you in theory, but in practice much of the "data" we get is also a manipulator. Lies, damned lies, and statistics and all that.
- slibhb 5y ago
  What if there's no good argument from data that non-violent crime is bad? Should we just accept it? When you see someone steal something, it's like hearing a discordant note in a song. It makes you feel bad. I think that feeling is to some degree responsible for all social harmony and we really have no choice but to trust it.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Worse, people are trained and paid to manipulate your guts. Don't be a mark. ----- edit: All confidence games rely on people who put their guts first. Trust me. No, don't, really. There are actual numbers you can consult, and the methods they used to compile those numbers are transparent and can be objected to.
bjt2n3904 5y ago
It's the brazen nature of it all. Implicitly, what is being said is: "Go ahead, try and stop me from taking what I want. The repercussions you risk facing are far greater than the risks I'm facing right now." This article comes off very cavalier. "Some times you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette."
- twofornone 5y ago
  >The repercussions you risk facing are far greater than the risks I'm facing right now." Aka anarcho-tyranny.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  It reads more like "There's so little theft that it would cost far more to prevent than is lost, but some people are spending an ton of time and effort to give everyone the impression that isn't true." So many people in this thread proudly explaining how they trust their guts over the statistics. That's how you end up in a police state.
  - slibhb 5y ago
    I don't think this sort of theft is that widespread. I see it occasionally in my east coast city but not often. I do think it's bad, it makes people dislike their community and has a negative effect on social frabric. We should think seriously about how to prevent it, which I'm sure we can do without veering into a police state.
- mcguire 5y ago
zucked 5y ago
I also feel like the social order is slipping - anecdotal, of course, but I've noticed a couple of indicators: I'm seeing an explosion of blatant moving vehicle violations - things that are hard to believe are "oopsie dasies". I drive _less_ now than I did ten or fifteen years ago, but I'm seeing double of careless red light running, stop sign running, excessive speeding, people spinning donuts in the middle of intersections, hit and runs. It's appalling. On a similar token, I feel like I've never seen the level of clearly unregistered vehicles on the roads - expired temporary tags, expired tags, and often, no registration displayed at all. They seem to operate with virtual impunity. Then you have people raising a fit about mask mandates, stealing in broad daylight, and the like. They know there's basically nothing going to be done about and it police departments all over are unlikely to respond. Petty theft of property (bikes, cars, etc) is through the roof and rarely is anyone implicated. It's honestly depressing. I understand a lot of the factors are likely to be traced back to a diminishing economic prospects, but it's hard to see society coming apart at the seams like it is.

by slibhb 5y ago

iszomer 5y ago

forgotmyoldacc 5y ago
That's not what banality of evil means: "evil acts are not necessarily perpetrated by evil people. Instead, they can simply be the result of bureaucrats dutifully obeying orders".
- iszomer 5y ago
  How are store owners "allowing" their stores to be looted not considered as such, in relation to not prosecuting thefts under $950 by state law?
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

There was a smash and grab this weekend at a jewelry store in a large, crowded mall in Austin, TX, which resulted in a lockdown because people mistakenly thought there were gunshots. I was surprised at the sheer brazenness of the theft - the jewelry store is basically smack dab in the middle of the mall, and the theft occurred during a crowded Sat evening, so it's not like the thieves were attempting to get out undetected. What many people are reacting to is the clear belief by thieves that they won't be confronted or significantly prosecuted, and that breakdown in the social fabric is what many people are reacting to.

sudosysgen 5y ago
That happened to me five years ago in Montreal, in a crowded Saturday evening. It's really not something new
- WalterBright 5y ago
  What's new is the frequency of it.
  - michaelbuckbee 5y ago
    I guess that's the thing though, is the frequency of occurrence up or is the frequency with which these events are recorded up?
    - i_like_apis 5y ago
      The frequency and scale has been increasing. Walgreens is closing stores in SF. And the flashmob smash-and-grab trend is newer, it is criminals organizing on social platforms like instagram.
      - mcphage 5y ago
        > Walgreens is closing stores in SF. Having seen a bunch of HN articles about Walgreens closing stores in SF, is this a SF phenomenon? Or even a SF Walgreens phenomenon? It feels a little weird to see lots of people drawing national conclusions from a situation which doesn't feel national.
        i_like_apis 5y ago
        I didn't mean to draw national conclusions. Regionally in the SF Bay Area, the frequency and scale of shoplifting and smash-and-grab is definitely increased.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago

santoshalper 5y ago

If it comes down to data or your gut, trust the data. Your gut is an emotional manipulator.

berberous 5y ago
If many people shoplift an item here and there, versus come in as a gang of 20 and steal items by the garbage bag, even if the $ values are equal, the latter is qualitatively different and has lasting effects that the former does not and may not immediately be apparent in the data collected
bjt2n3904 5y ago
And data is pure, unbiased, and accurately reflects the matter at hand!
seneca 5y ago
> If it comes down to data or your gut, trust the data. Your gut is an emotional manipulator. I don't disagree with you in theory, but in practice much of the "data" we get is also a manipulator. Lies, damned lies, and statistics and all that.
slibhb 5y ago
What if there's no good argument from data that non-violent crime is bad? Should we just accept it? When you see someone steal something, it's like hearing a discordant note in a song. It makes you feel bad. I think that feeling is to some degree responsible for all social harmony and we really have no choice but to trust it.
pessimizer 5y ago
Worse, people are trained and paid to manipulate your guts. Don't be a mark. ----- edit: All confidence games rely on people who put their guts first. Trust me. No, don't, really. There are actual numbers you can consult, and the methods they used to compile those numbers are transparent and can be objected to.

bjt2n3904 5y ago

It's the brazen nature of it all. Implicitly, what is being said is: "Go ahead, try and stop me from taking what I want. The repercussions you risk facing are far greater than the risks I'm facing right now." This article comes off very cavalier. "Some times you need to break a few eggs to make an omelette."

twofornone 5y ago
>The repercussions you risk facing are far greater than the risks I'm facing right now." Aka anarcho-tyranny.
pessimizer 5y ago
It reads more like "There's so little theft that it would cost far more to prevent than is lost, but some people are spending an ton of time and effort to give everyone the impression that isn't true." So many people in this thread proudly explaining how they trust their guts over the statistics. That's how you end up in a police state.
- slibhb 5y ago
  I don't think this sort of theft is that widespread. I see it occasionally in my east coast city but not often. I do think it's bad, it makes people dislike their community and has a negative effect on social frabric. We should think seriously about how to prevent it, which I'm sure we can do without veering into a police state.
mcguire 5y ago

zucked 5y ago

I also feel like the social order is slipping - anecdotal, of course, but I've noticed a couple of indicators: I'm seeing an explosion of blatant moving vehicle violations - things that are hard to believe are "oopsie dasies". I drive _less_ now than I did ten or fifteen years ago, but I'm seeing double of careless red light running, stop sign running, excessive speeding, people spinning donuts in the middle of intersections, hit and runs. It's appalling. On a similar token, I feel like I've never seen the level of clearly unregistered vehicles on the roads - expired temporary tags, expired tags, and often, no registration displayed at all. They seem to operate with virtual impunity. Then you have people raising a fit about mask mandates, stealing in broad daylight, and the like. They know there's basically nothing going to be done about and it police departments all over are unlikely to respond. Petty theft of property (bikes, cars, etc) is through the roof and rarely is anyone implicated. It's honestly depressing. I understand a lot of the factors are likely to be traced back to a diminishing economic prospects, but it's hard to see society coming apart at the seams like it is.