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This is a tough intersection between highly-visible privacy controls and the ability for artists to use their Macs in live performance situations where any over

This is a tough intersection between highly-visible privacy controls and the ability for artists to use their Macs in live performance situations where any overlays could be a distraction. In the Privacy menu in MacOS now, you can authorize applications to do things like use locations services and record the screen. I think it would be reasonable to include an authorization for audio recording and bypass the orange indicator. Or they could turn on the webcam green light when audio input is active?

minhazm 5y ago
The webcam light won't work if you're using a laptop in clamshell mode, or even using a Mac Mini/Pro. I think the best middle ground for this is to allow users to grant some permission that allows the app to access the Mic without turning the orange dot on.
- tedunangst 5y ago
  Why would spyware not request this permission?
  - chipotle_coyote 5y ago
    I think the implication in the post was that the user would be prompted to grant the permission, so they would have to click "Yes" when the spyware asked for permission.
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    Were this to be a permission, there would be no legitimate use case where "hide microphone use indicator" would be a required function. Anything that requires that should be flagged immediately as hostile.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  Or a simple toggle deep in the system settings: "Show indicator when using a microphone or webcam".
ly 5y ago
I think the webcam light is completely controlled by the hardware signal, so the only way to turn that light on/off is by turning on the webcam itself, which I don't think is desired either.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jahewson 5y ago
  I would not assume that is the case, if it’s even possible. I hope it is though! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/12/18/research-shows-how-macbook-webcams-can-spy-on-their-users-without-warning/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/12/18...
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    2013... The T2 chips controlling the webcam didn't arrive until 2017.
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    All Apple computers since ~2009 have had the webcam light on the same physical circuit as the webcam, such that one can not be powered up independently of the other. PCs and third-party webcams are of course another matter...
ridaj 5y ago
This is desktops creeping towards an attitude, familiar on Apple's phones, in which the user is essentially untrusted to make security decisions. Because let's face it nobody seriously audits the security of software going onto Macs. The loser is the user's freedom to enjoy the computer as a true general-purpose tool.
- marcellus23 5y ago
  You're assuming malicious intent where none exists. This feature is a security gain for users — previously there was _no way_ to know if your mic was being used. Now there is. It's giving me extra information I can use to make security decisions, where previously I had none of that information. It's unfortunate it causes problems for some users, hopefully a fix will be forthcoming, but I believe it's an oversight.
  - ridaj 5y ago
    I'm not saying it's malicious, I'm just saying it's a trade-off. Fwiw I understand the trade-off and it makes sense to me even as a Mac user.
    - marcellus23 5y ago
      Fair enough. I suppose I would characterize it more as Apple not trusting developers, rather than not trusting users.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Maybe this makes more sense if we view this as involving three parties: Apple, users, and app developers. On OSX at least, some apps are developed by third parties whose code isn't easily scrutinized by Apple or by end users. I think Apple's policy helps users navigate that situation pretty well. But I also can't see any good reason to prevent users from disabling that feature in a fine-grained way. E.g. per app and/or temporarily.
- snowwrestler 5y ago
  No it’s not; this thread is full of solutions that power users can apply to avoid or remove the orange dot. Apple not taken anything away. What they have done is change a default. Since defaults matter most to the least savvy users, skewing defaults toward security makes sense. Power users can apply extra skill to change the default; that’s what makes them power users.
Illniyar 5y ago
No it's not. Enable by default. Provide a way to disable for those who need it, done. It's just not apple's way to think users might want to do things differently.

minhazm 5y ago

The webcam light won't work if you're using a laptop in clamshell mode, or even using a Mac Mini/Pro. I think the best middle ground for this is to allow users to grant some permission that allows the app to access the Mic without turning the orange dot on.

tedunangst 5y ago
Why would spyware not request this permission?
- chipotle_coyote 5y ago
  I think the implication in the post was that the user would be prompted to grant the permission, so they would have to click "Yes" when the spyware asked for permission.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  Were this to be a permission, there would be no legitimate use case where "hide microphone use indicator" would be a required function. Anything that requires that should be flagged immediately as hostile.
jonny_eh 5y ago
Or a simple toggle deep in the system settings: "Show indicator when using a microphone or webcam".

ly 5y ago

I think the webcam light is completely controlled by the hardware signal, so the only way to turn that light on/off is by turning on the webcam itself, which I don't think is desired either.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jahewson 5y ago
I would not assume that is the case, if it’s even possible. I hope it is though! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/12/18/research-shows-how-macbook-webcams-can-spy-on-their-users-without-warning/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/12/18...
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  2013... The T2 chips controlling the webcam didn't arrive until 2017.
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  All Apple computers since ~2009 have had the webcam light on the same physical circuit as the webcam, such that one can not be powered up independently of the other. PCs and third-party webcams are of course another matter...

ridaj 5y ago

This is desktops creeping towards an attitude, familiar on Apple's phones, in which the user is essentially untrusted to make security decisions. Because let's face it nobody seriously audits the security of software going onto Macs. The loser is the user's freedom to enjoy the computer as a true general-purpose tool.

marcellus23 5y ago
You're assuming malicious intent where none exists. This feature is a security gain for users — previously there was _no way_ to know if your mic was being used. Now there is. It's giving me extra information I can use to make security decisions, where previously I had none of that information. It's unfortunate it causes problems for some users, hopefully a fix will be forthcoming, but I believe it's an oversight.
- ridaj 5y ago
  I'm not saying it's malicious, I'm just saying it's a trade-off. Fwiw I understand the trade-off and it makes sense to me even as a Mac user.
  - marcellus23 5y ago
    Fair enough. I suppose I would characterize it more as Apple not trusting developers, rather than not trusting users.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
Maybe this makes more sense if we view this as involving three parties: Apple, users, and app developers. On OSX at least, some apps are developed by third parties whose code isn't easily scrutinized by Apple or by end users. I think Apple's policy helps users navigate that situation pretty well. But I also can't see any good reason to prevent users from disabling that feature in a fine-grained way. E.g. per app and/or temporarily.
snowwrestler 5y ago
No it’s not; this thread is full of solutions that power users can apply to avoid or remove the orange dot. Apple not taken anything away. What they have done is change a default. Since defaults matter most to the least savvy users, skewing defaults toward security makes sense. Power users can apply extra skill to change the default; that’s what makes them power users.

Illniyar 5y ago

No it's not. Enable by default. Provide a way to disable for those who need it, done. It's just not apple's way to think users might want to do things differently.