5 ms·

The orange dot will appear on the live output, which is fed to an LED video wall/projector/etc. on or near a stage. Completely unacceptable, and makes Macs enti

The orange dot will appear on the live output, which is fed to an LED video wall/projector/etc. on or near a stage. Completely unacceptable, and makes Macs entirely useless for live visuals.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> Completely unacceptable But.... why? Why would a little orange dot offend anyone?
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Because it's not part of the visuals, which should be the only thing on the output. Maybe it's because I've actually run systems for this exact purpose, but I'm kind of surprised at how difficult this seems to be for some to grasp.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    But I don't understand why they're mirroring their desktop to some kind of visual display system? Wouldn't they be using something like a DeckLink for this use-case? Monitor outputs are for monitors - if you want an application-specific video output you can get that and it won't be a desktop so it won't have this problem. If you mirror your desktop then yeah... you get whatever desktop UI chrome is on your desktop.
    - ehutch79 5y ago
      Because most of these displays look like monitors to your system. Using the existing rendering pipelines to a full screen monitor is far easier, and less expensive then custom hardware just to move pixels that the built in graphics card is more than capable of
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        Ok so it's a quick hack for video output but they're going to run into problems like this. And for example any notifications, system updates, Launchpad, whatever, would also appear. That's how you end up with goofy things like a sign with a Windows 'need to update now' message. If they were doing it properly with a production video output they wouldn't have this problem.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        You can call it a "quick hack" if you'd like, but I can assure you that all of the potential pitfalls you mention are taken into account by the people who setup and run these systems. You're not going to "gotcha!" people who have actually done this stuff.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      They're not mirroring their desktop. It's a secondary display running a full screen application. That's just how this stuff works. Sure, you could use something like a DeckLink, but the vast majority of things like this just use a monitor output.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      Thank you! It's crazy to me that anyone that would consider themselves a professional would mirror their desktop for the use cases these people claim to be using. "Mariah Carey playing in front of millions on NYE"? Gimme a break. No one is mirroring the desktop from their Macbook for that performance.
      - ratww 5y ago
        Nobody is mirroring their desktop...
        chrisseaton 5y ago
        That's how the orange dot is appearing - it's a UI element from the interactive user-interface of macOS, but it's appearing on a video out because they're re-using a monitor signal designed for mirroring or extending you desktop.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ratww 5y ago
        That might be pedantic, sure, but the point is that extending is not mirroring. For the use cases like the one described in the article, that distinction matters. I'm not questioning the usefulness of the orange dot, but rather the people saying the workflow of using a second monitor as output as being invalid and wrong.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        You know what I mean and the distinction is meaningless. No one doing a show as big as that is doing it without the hardware necessary to make sure that they can control 100% of the output path.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  Artists expect a blank canvas, with nothing there they have not put there.
- the_fury 5y ago
  Because if I had wanted a little orange dot to be shown to everyone during my performance, I would have put it there.
quadrangle 5y ago
You seem to be confusing two things (well, really just you're being hyperbolic): TRUE: the dot BEING THERE is useless (and undesireable and bad) FALSE: the dot makes Macs useless for live visuals Just because something is 100% bad design, bothersome, 100% negative, and should never have been allowed to happen, does NOT mean it destroys a product entirely. When Mini Coopers were made with the stupidest turn signals ever (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28661282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28661282) that doesn't make the car undrivable even though there's ABSOLUTELY no defense of the design.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  The dot absolutely makes Macs useless for live visuals. Nobody worth a damn would ever use a system that required an orange dot to appear on the live output.
  - quadrangle 5y ago
    You can use them for live visuals. You WON'T (and I don't blame you), but you CAN. "Absolutely useless" obviously is intended to be "I'm super mad about this" rather than literally true.
    - nullandvoid 5y ago
      You're picking a really odd hill to die on. Is it that hard to imagine that having random imagery (orange dot) showing on your live work (which a client has paid $$$ for) is a complete no-go for professionals (if you ever want to get hired again)?
      - quadrangle 5y ago
        Just mildly objecting to the strength of someone's hyperbole is life-threatening? Just because other people are feeling super aggravated about this completely stupid design decision by Apple doesn't mean it's valid to project that on me as if I'm fighting some battle. I don't really care about this. I get it, people are upset about a totally indefensible, short-sighted design that impacts people's ability to use Macs to do presentations that will be accepted in professional contexts. Yes, there's some sense to the hyperbole that says something is "useless" when reality is "this will not be accepted in my field of work". It's still hyperbole. Admitting that it's hyperbole doesn't mean accepting the bad design.
buildbuildbuild 5y ago
My temporary fix has been to use an expensive hardware scaler to crop the output when I run into this. You’d think Apple would have plenty of production experts beta testing, I’m sure this will eventually affect their own live events. Mic input is very useful for receiving timecode to keep production gear in sync.
- jaywalk 5y ago
  Yeah, I considered that when I was reading the article. If your content can still look alright being scaled, that'll work. There is definitely some content that won't be quite so forgiving, though.
  - buildbuildbuild 5y ago
    You’re right. To clarify I’m blacking out the top X pixels to hide the dot, not scaling.
- modeless 5y ago
  There's a built in accessibility zoom feature in macos, can it also crop out the dot?

The orange dot will appear on the live output, which is fed to an LED video wall/projector/etc. on or near a stage. Completely unacceptable, and makes Macs entirely useless for live visuals.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> Completely unacceptable But.... why? Why would a little orange dot offend anyone?

jaywalk 5y ago
Because it's not part of the visuals, which should be the only thing on the output. Maybe it's because I've actually run systems for this exact purpose, but I'm kind of surprised at how difficult this seems to be for some to grasp.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  But I don't understand why they're mirroring their desktop to some kind of visual display system? Wouldn't they be using something like a DeckLink for this use-case? Monitor outputs are for monitors - if you want an application-specific video output you can get that and it won't be a desktop so it won't have this problem. If you mirror your desktop then yeah... you get whatever desktop UI chrome is on your desktop.
  - ehutch79 5y ago
    Because most of these displays look like monitors to your system. Using the existing rendering pipelines to a full screen monitor is far easier, and less expensive then custom hardware just to move pixels that the built in graphics card is more than capable of
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Ok so it's a quick hack for video output but they're going to run into problems like this. And for example any notifications, system updates, Launchpad, whatever, would also appear. That's how you end up with goofy things like a sign with a Windows 'need to update now' message. If they were doing it properly with a production video output they wouldn't have this problem.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        You can call it a "quick hack" if you'd like, but I can assure you that all of the potential pitfalls you mention are taken into account by the people who setup and run these systems. You're not going to "gotcha!" people who have actually done this stuff.
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    They're not mirroring their desktop. It's a secondary display running a full screen application. That's just how this stuff works. Sure, you could use something like a DeckLink, but the vast majority of things like this just use a monitor output.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    Thank you! It's crazy to me that anyone that would consider themselves a professional would mirror their desktop for the use cases these people claim to be using. "Mariah Carey playing in front of millions on NYE"? Gimme a break. No one is mirroring the desktop from their Macbook for that performance.
    - ratww 5y ago
      Nobody is mirroring their desktop...
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        That's how the orange dot is appearing - it's a UI element from the interactive user-interface of macOS, but it's appearing on a video out because they're re-using a monitor signal designed for mirroring or extending you desktop.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        ratww 5y ago
        That might be pedantic, sure, but the point is that extending is not mirroring. For the use cases like the one described in the article, that distinction matters. I'm not questioning the usefulness of the orange dot, but rather the people saying the workflow of using a second monitor as output as being invalid and wrong.
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        You know what I mean and the distinction is meaningless. No one doing a show as big as that is doing it without the hardware necessary to make sure that they can control 100% of the output path.
egypturnash 5y ago
Artists expect a blank canvas, with nothing there they have not put there.
the_fury 5y ago
Because if I had wanted a little orange dot to be shown to everyone during my performance, I would have put it there.

quadrangle 5y ago

You seem to be confusing two things (well, really just you're being hyperbolic): TRUE: the dot BEING THERE is useless (and undesireable and bad) FALSE: the dot makes Macs useless for live visuals Just because something is 100% bad design, bothersome, 100% negative, and should never have been allowed to happen, does NOT mean it destroys a product entirely. When Mini Coopers were made with the stupidest turn signals ever (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28661282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28661282) that doesn't make the car undrivable even though there's ABSOLUTELY no defense of the design.

jaywalk 5y ago
The dot absolutely makes Macs useless for live visuals. Nobody worth a damn would ever use a system that required an orange dot to appear on the live output.
- quadrangle 5y ago
  You can use them for live visuals. You WON'T (and I don't blame you), but you CAN. "Absolutely useless" obviously is intended to be "I'm super mad about this" rather than literally true.
  - nullandvoid 5y ago
    You're picking a really odd hill to die on. Is it that hard to imagine that having random imagery (orange dot) showing on your live work (which a client has paid $$$ for) is a complete no-go for professionals (if you ever want to get hired again)?
    - quadrangle 5y ago
      Just mildly objecting to the strength of someone's hyperbole is life-threatening? Just because other people are feeling super aggravated about this completely stupid design decision by Apple doesn't mean it's valid to project that on me as if I'm fighting some battle. I don't really care about this. I get it, people are upset about a totally indefensible, short-sighted design that impacts people's ability to use Macs to do presentations that will be accepted in professional contexts. Yes, there's some sense to the hyperbole that says something is "useless" when reality is "this will not be accepted in my field of work". It's still hyperbole. Admitting that it's hyperbole doesn't mean accepting the bad design.

buildbuildbuild 5y ago

My temporary fix has been to use an expensive hardware scaler to crop the output when I run into this. You’d think Apple would have plenty of production experts beta testing, I’m sure this will eventually affect their own live events. Mic input is very useful for receiving timecode to keep production gear in sync.

jaywalk 5y ago
Yeah, I considered that when I was reading the article. If your content can still look alright being scaled, that'll work. There is definitely some content that won't be quite so forgiving, though.
- buildbuildbuild 5y ago
  You’re right. To clarify I’m blacking out the top X pixels to hide the dot, not scaling.
modeless 5y ago
There's a built in accessibility zoom feature in macos, can it also crop out the dot?