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The "main issue" is that Tesla is even able to assist the bailiffs in this manner. If a remote party can, by design, lock you out of your car and take control

The "main issue" is that Tesla is even able to assist the bailiffs in this manner. If a remote party can, by design, lock you out of your car and take control of it without your consent, do you even really own the vehicle in the first place? Others have argued "well, you don't own the car, the bank does", but unless Tesla is somehow unable to do this with cars not owned by a lienholder, that's kinda beside the point as far as I'm concerned.

mikeryan 5y ago
In the US a financed car is “owned” by the bank until fully paid off - which most of the time is a subsidiary of the manufacturer. A lot of Teslas are also just leased.
- mdoms 5y ago
  Did you really not read the last sentence of the comment you responded to?
- dangerbird2 5y ago
  It's not owned by the bank until you foreclose, after which it's most certainly owned by the bank. As an aside, how often is it for the manufacturer/dealer to own the bank that issues auto loans. I got mine from Capital One, and I assumed most auto loans outside of the sketchy loanshark used car dealers were issued by the big national banks
  - nomel 5y ago
    Why is this comment being downvoted? It appears to be correct.
  - mikeryan 5y ago
    In most states the financing bank owns the title to the car and is the "Legal Owner" as opposed to the "Registered Owner" who is the one who is buying the car. The used market is likely different but for new cars from Dealerships, GM Financial, Toyota Financial, Ford Credit etc are Billion Dollar subsidiaries.
    - throwawayboise 5y ago
      Is that true? In my state the financing bank has a lien recorded on on the title, but they are not the owner. Maybe that is the exception? Edit: reading some other comments ... I'm talking about the traditional financed purchase of a car, not a lease. Agree that for a leased car (which is quite common now though I've never done it), the ownership stays with the leasing entity.
      - mikeryan 5y ago
        No this is for financed cars. When you live in a title-holding state, the title will be issued to the registered owner/operator of the car, regardless of lien holder. Though your lien holder will receive a separate document verifying their connection to the loan, you will be in possession of the title itself. There are only nine title-holding states: Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, Oklahoma, Wisconsin. In the other 41 states, titles are issued to the lien holder of your vehicle until the loan is fully paid off. From: https://www.rategenius.com/resources/titles/#:~:text=There%20are%20only%20nine%20title,loan%20is%20fully%20paid%20off https://www.rategenius.com/resources/titles/#:~:text=There%2....
  - giobox 5y ago
    It used to be quite common; at various times in its history you can make the argument Ford sold cars at a loss to help Ford Credit sell profitable car loans. Even today, Ford Credit (loans/leases etc) is responsible for about 50% of Ford's annual profits: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company There have been quite a few years Ford made more profit as a "bank" than they did from making and selling the cars. If you get a new Ford from a dealer and request finance/lease options, its pretty typical for Ford Credit to provide the backing.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
In the UK that would be interference with goods (a tort) or taking a vehicle without the owner's consent (a criminal offense). Still in the UK, although I suspect that holds more generally, when you buy something using a loan you own it. What you bought may be a security for the loan but that's different. Leasing a car or using a lease/purchase scheme is also different since leasing means you rent but don't own.
oh_sigh 5y ago
Yes, you really own the vehicle, and that is why if Tesla intentionally just bricks/locks you out of your car because they feel like it, you would sue them and almost certainly win in court.
zionic 5y ago
I agree with you, but he same is true for physical keys. A car dealership can create a working key to steal/repossess your car in much the same way. We really need to move to strong crypto.
- Thrymr 5y ago
  If you don't own the car outright, why would an entity with a lien on the vehicle not also have access to such "strong crypto" legally? This is an issued with a secured loan, presumably in a crypto world the repossession would be allowed by "smart contract" if the borrower defaulted.
- Ajedi32 5y ago
  In my mind there's a significant difference between a dealership using their knowledge of the car to assist with repossession, and a manufacturer demonstrating that you never really had control of your own car in the first place. It just feels like a betrayal. Your car is loyal to the manufacturer, not to you. It will act in a manner directly opposed to your best interests as the owner if company that sold it to you orders it. I understand that's true for most software these days, but that doesn't make me any happier about it, and it really feels worse when the software in question is inextricably tied to and in control of an expensive piece of physical hardware that you purchased.
  - donio 5y ago
    Directive 4: [Classified]
  - AtlasBarfed 5y ago
    As stated in other places here, if you have leased or financed your car, YOU DON'T OWN IT. You pay for the right to use it on a monthly basis. That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      > That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession. There is value in adding friction to enforcing law/contracts: I don't know if FSD-repo crosses the line for me, but I know automating enforcement is bad for society. What if everytime Tesla cameras detect the car speeding, or has crossed double-lines, it helpfully charges the fine to the linked credit card? After all, its just automated ticketing, right?
giobox 5y ago
This is by no means limited to Tesla, and is true of almost every new car sold now. As an example, almost every new Ford sold in the USA since 2019 has standard 5G/GPS remote connectivity; even the cheapest entry level cars at Ford like the new Maverick can remotely over 5G unlock doors and remote start the engine (just like the 'owner' can in the Ford pass app, now standard spec on virtually all Fords.). The manufacturers of course love the extra usage metrics and can also over the air sell upgrades like 5G hotspot access and so forth. Many cars now have 5G/GPS receiver for metrics even if no connectivity or nav features whatsoever exposed to user. My point is; aside from the use of "summon", this kind of locate, remote unlock and start by manufacturer is available on almost all new cars sold today, no matter how cheap - the 5G remote access tech has become increasingly ubiquitous. This is not something unique to the way Tesla creates it cars at all, especially in 2021. > https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/fordpass-remote-features/how-do-i-remote-start-using-the-fordpass-app/ https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/fordpass-remot...

mikeryan 5y ago

In the US a financed car is “owned” by the bank until fully paid off - which most of the time is a subsidiary of the manufacturer. A lot of Teslas are also just leased.

mdoms 5y ago
Did you really not read the last sentence of the comment you responded to?
dangerbird2 5y ago
It's not owned by the bank until you foreclose, after which it's most certainly owned by the bank. As an aside, how often is it for the manufacturer/dealer to own the bank that issues auto loans. I got mine from Capital One, and I assumed most auto loans outside of the sketchy loanshark used car dealers were issued by the big national banks
- nomel 5y ago
  Why is this comment being downvoted? It appears to be correct.
- mikeryan 5y ago
  In most states the financing bank owns the title to the car and is the "Legal Owner" as opposed to the "Registered Owner" who is the one who is buying the car. The used market is likely different but for new cars from Dealerships, GM Financial, Toyota Financial, Ford Credit etc are Billion Dollar subsidiaries.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Is that true? In my state the financing bank has a lien recorded on on the title, but they are not the owner. Maybe that is the exception? Edit: reading some other comments ... I'm talking about the traditional financed purchase of a car, not a lease. Agree that for a leased car (which is quite common now though I've never done it), the ownership stays with the leasing entity.
    - mikeryan 5y ago
      No this is for financed cars. When you live in a title-holding state, the title will be issued to the registered owner/operator of the car, regardless of lien holder. Though your lien holder will receive a separate document verifying their connection to the loan, you will be in possession of the title itself. There are only nine title-holding states: Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, Oklahoma, Wisconsin. In the other 41 states, titles are issued to the lien holder of your vehicle until the loan is fully paid off. From: https://www.rategenius.com/resources/titles/#:~:text=There%20are%20only%20nine%20title,loan%20is%20fully%20paid%20off https://www.rategenius.com/resources/titles/#:~:text=There%2....
- giobox 5y ago
  It used to be quite common; at various times in its history you can make the argument Ford sold cars at a loss to help Ford Credit sell profitable car loans. Even today, Ford Credit (loans/leases etc) is responsible for about 50% of Ford's annual profits: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company There have been quite a few years Ford made more profit as a "bank" than they did from making and selling the cars. If you get a new Ford from a dealer and request finance/lease options, its pretty typical for Ford Credit to provide the backing.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

In the UK that would be interference with goods (a tort) or taking a vehicle without the owner's consent (a criminal offense). Still in the UK, although I suspect that holds more generally, when you buy something using a loan you own it. What you bought may be a security for the loan but that's different. Leasing a car or using a lease/purchase scheme is also different since leasing means you rent but don't own.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Yes, you really own the vehicle, and that is why if Tesla intentionally just bricks/locks you out of your car because they feel like it, you would sue them and almost certainly win in court.

zionic 5y ago

I agree with you, but he same is true for physical keys. A car dealership can create a working key to steal/repossess your car in much the same way. We really need to move to strong crypto.

Thrymr 5y ago
If you don't own the car outright, why would an entity with a lien on the vehicle not also have access to such "strong crypto" legally? This is an issued with a secured loan, presumably in a crypto world the repossession would be allowed by "smart contract" if the borrower defaulted.
Ajedi32 5y ago
In my mind there's a significant difference between a dealership using their knowledge of the car to assist with repossession, and a manufacturer demonstrating that you never really had control of your own car in the first place. It just feels like a betrayal. Your car is loyal to the manufacturer, not to you. It will act in a manner directly opposed to your best interests as the owner if company that sold it to you orders it. I understand that's true for most software these days, but that doesn't make me any happier about it, and it really feels worse when the software in question is inextricably tied to and in control of an expensive piece of physical hardware that you purchased.
- donio 5y ago
  Directive 4: [Classified]
- AtlasBarfed 5y ago
  As stated in other places here, if you have leased or financed your car, YOU DON'T OWN IT. You pay for the right to use it on a monthly basis. That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession. There is value in adding friction to enforcing law/contracts: I don't know if FSD-repo crosses the line for me, but I know automating enforcement is bad for society. What if everytime Tesla cameras detect the car speeding, or has crossed double-lines, it helpfully charges the fine to the linked credit card? After all, its just automated ticketing, right?

giobox 5y ago

This is by no means limited to Tesla, and is true of almost every new car sold now. As an example, almost every new Ford sold in the USA since 2019 has standard 5G/GPS remote connectivity; even the cheapest entry level cars at Ford like the new Maverick can remotely over 5G unlock doors and remote start the engine (just like the 'owner' can in the Ford pass app, now standard spec on virtually all Fords.). The manufacturers of course love the extra usage metrics and can also over the air sell upgrades like 5G hotspot access and so forth. Many cars now have 5G/GPS receiver for metrics even if no connectivity or nav features whatsoever exposed to user. My point is; aside from the use of "summon", this kind of locate, remote unlock and start by manufacturer is available on almost all new cars sold today, no matter how cheap - the 5G remote access tech has become increasingly ubiquitous. This is not something unique to the way Tesla creates it cars at all, especially in 2021. > https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/fordpass-remote-features/how-do-i-remote-start-using-the-fordpass-app/ https://www.ford.com/support/how-tos/fordpass/fordpass-remot...