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100%! This reminded me of a similar lesson beaten into us _repeatedly_ in college. I would study for a test and feel like everything was crystal clear. Then i w

100%! This reminded me of a similar lesson beaten into us _repeatedly_ in college. I would study for a test and feel like everything was crystal clear. Then i walk into the exam and get absolutely destroyed by stuff i thought i understood.. over and over again. It was (unfortunately) a common experience. Seeing the answers afterwards, they usually involved facts i knew applied in a way i could not. That experience convinced me that your internal assessment of how well you understand something can be wildly off without an objective yardstick. Like nothing teaches epistemic humility quite as forcefully as getting rekt in an exam.

maximus-decimus 5y ago
The only thing that taught me is imposter syndrom and how to wake up in sweat after dreaming of still being at university.
turdnagel 5y ago
I also had a similar experience in college, but I'm having trouble understanding what the lesson you learned was. Did you eventually improve?
- opportune 5y ago
  I think this is a problem solvable by doing practice problems. For me with Math this is something I learned the hard way many times. In more advanced math tests you will be asked to prove something novel (to you) using skills/material from the covered subject. So it’s not enough to know the theorems, you need to understand them at a deeper level so you can apply them in new situations or use a similar practice from the theorem to prove something similar. This is pretty straightforward for most math/physics/other stem courses since they’re usually accompanied by problem sets in their textbooks, and it’s rare to have to do absolutely all of them as HW.
dqpb 5y ago
For me, the act of programming has taught me epistemic humility much more forcefully and consistently than exams.
supportlocal4h 5y ago
A bit off-topic, but I remember a college class in which I was completely lost. I wasn't even clear on the topic of the class. Nothing ever made sense. I got D's on most of the tests. I was enormously frustrated. Then, at the end, I got my final grade: B+. My sense of relief was comical and fleeting. It was replaced by anger. How was it possible that most of the students in the class did worse than I? What an absolute waste to subject us all to such nonsense.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  I get the sense that history teachers talk about how history is the most important, physics teachers talk about how physics is the most important, gender politics the same, arts the same etc... There's incentive to keep yourself employed however useless, bloated or out of time what you're teaching is. I'm not sure how the school plan is evaluated in different places, but i feel like for example religion in a country like Sweden where most people don't believe in it[1] should be brought down to make space for something Swedes think is important. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Sweden
- blakesley 5y ago
  Are you just talking about grading on a curve? This happened to me in a graduate math class and I agree with you that it felt unnecessarily demoralizing. But it also seemed like a natural outcome of grading a hard class on a curve.
  - sandyarmstrong 5y ago
    I had some upper division math classes that were offered for both undergrad and grad credits. I enjoyed the classes, but one thing I noticed was that the teacher seemed to be under some pressure to ensure the grad students passed. They didn't seem to care about the classes and performed horribly, I would do OK, and at the end of term all the undergrads like me would exit with an almost-guaranteed A. Really helped to shape my perception that grades are meaningless and ultimately political.
culebron21 5y ago
I had to learn driving a car this spring, with manual transmission. Knowing these things helped a lot. I made notes of all the traffic regulations document, and made tables of all long and intricate rules (e.g. lists of places where u-turn is forbidden, or backpedal, or what are speed limits for different kinds of vehicles/roads). This helped avoid learning all those 1000 test questions, what most students did. And using computer simulator with 3 pedals helped to automate the movements, and think of subtleties. Reportedly, those who had no practice before driving school, under the pressure of the exam, didn't stall the engine, but failed exactly in higher-order matters, like they'd cross continuous lines or not notice speed limit signs.
- laurent92 5y ago
  If you can, teach your kid to drive at 13. On private property obviously, no traffic rules, just the mechanical part. Everything after that will be much easier.
- titanomachy 5y ago
  Do you live somewhere with an unusually hard driving test? I don't remember studying much at all for the written test (Canada), let alone memorizing a bank of 1000 questions. I never heard of anyone failing the written test. Plenty of people failed the driving test, though.
  - Veen 5y ago
    In the UK, the pass rate for the theory test was 54% for the last year. Lots of people fail it. You need to correctly answer 43 or more questions from 50 they ask, and there are over 700 possible questions. In addition to which, there's a simulated hazard perception test, which lots of people fail too. Also, under 50% of learner drivers pass their first practical test, which involves a 40 minute drive on public roads with an independent driving section and manouvres like parallel parking and bay parking, plus a bunch of questions you have to get right. You'll fail for stuff like not checking your mirror often enough, not checking blind spots, going too fast, going too slow, incorrect positioning at junctions, and so on.
  - 5y ago

maximus-decimus 5y ago

The only thing that taught me is imposter syndrom and how to wake up in sweat after dreaming of still being at university.

turdnagel 5y ago

I also had a similar experience in college, but I'm having trouble understanding what the lesson you learned was. Did you eventually improve?

opportune 5y ago
I think this is a problem solvable by doing practice problems. For me with Math this is something I learned the hard way many times. In more advanced math tests you will be asked to prove something novel (to you) using skills/material from the covered subject. So it’s not enough to know the theorems, you need to understand them at a deeper level so you can apply them in new situations or use a similar practice from the theorem to prove something similar. This is pretty straightforward for most math/physics/other stem courses since they’re usually accompanied by problem sets in their textbooks, and it’s rare to have to do absolutely all of them as HW.

dqpb 5y ago

For me, the act of programming has taught me epistemic humility much more forcefully and consistently than exams.

supportlocal4h 5y ago

A bit off-topic, but I remember a college class in which I was completely lost. I wasn't even clear on the topic of the class. Nothing ever made sense. I got D's on most of the tests. I was enormously frustrated. Then, at the end, I got my final grade: B+. My sense of relief was comical and fleeting. It was replaced by anger. How was it possible that most of the students in the class did worse than I? What an absolute waste to subject us all to such nonsense.

lillecarl 5y ago
I get the sense that history teachers talk about how history is the most important, physics teachers talk about how physics is the most important, gender politics the same, arts the same etc... There's incentive to keep yourself employed however useless, bloated or out of time what you're teaching is. I'm not sure how the school plan is evaluated in different places, but i feel like for example religion in a country like Sweden where most people don't believe in it[1] should be brought down to make space for something Swedes think is important. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Sweden
blakesley 5y ago
Are you just talking about grading on a curve? This happened to me in a graduate math class and I agree with you that it felt unnecessarily demoralizing. But it also seemed like a natural outcome of grading a hard class on a curve.
- sandyarmstrong 5y ago
  I had some upper division math classes that were offered for both undergrad and grad credits. I enjoyed the classes, but one thing I noticed was that the teacher seemed to be under some pressure to ensure the grad students passed. They didn't seem to care about the classes and performed horribly, I would do OK, and at the end of term all the undergrads like me would exit with an almost-guaranteed A. Really helped to shape my perception that grades are meaningless and ultimately political.

culebron21 5y ago

I had to learn driving a car this spring, with manual transmission. Knowing these things helped a lot. I made notes of all the traffic regulations document, and made tables of all long and intricate rules (e.g. lists of places where u-turn is forbidden, or backpedal, or what are speed limits for different kinds of vehicles/roads). This helped avoid learning all those 1000 test questions, what most students did. And using computer simulator with 3 pedals helped to automate the movements, and think of subtleties. Reportedly, those who had no practice before driving school, under the pressure of the exam, didn't stall the engine, but failed exactly in higher-order matters, like they'd cross continuous lines or not notice speed limit signs.

laurent92 5y ago
If you can, teach your kid to drive at 13. On private property obviously, no traffic rules, just the mechanical part. Everything after that will be much easier.
titanomachy 5y ago
Do you live somewhere with an unusually hard driving test? I don't remember studying much at all for the written test (Canada), let alone memorizing a bank of 1000 questions. I never heard of anyone failing the written test. Plenty of people failed the driving test, though.
- Veen 5y ago
  In the UK, the pass rate for the theory test was 54% for the last year. Lots of people fail it. You need to correctly answer 43 or more questions from 50 they ask, and there are over 700 possible questions. In addition to which, there's a simulated hazard perception test, which lots of people fail too. Also, under 50% of learner drivers pass their first practical test, which involves a 40 minute drive on public roads with an independent driving section and manouvres like parallel parking and bay parking, plus a bunch of questions you have to get right. You'll fail for stuff like not checking your mirror often enough, not checking blind spots, going too fast, going too slow, incorrect positioning at junctions, and so on.
- 5y ago