7 ms·

sounds like vaccine marketing is crossing into the "25% more nuts and 8g protein per serving" territory. I suppose that regular consumer isnt ready to evaluate

by trhway 5y ago

sounds like vaccine marketing is crossing into the "25% more nuts and 8g protein per serving" territory. I suppose that regular consumer isnt ready to evaluate all the aspects of the difference between say 20-fold and 37-fold antibody levels beside the "bigger is better" (is it? does high antibody levels come for free? i remember a study where methotrexate treatment to kill B-cells which were of high levels after flu cured Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for example).

amznbyebyebye 5y ago
Shame you’re being downvoted and people don’t get that there might be just a small conflict of interest for the Pfizer ceo to be the one dictating that we need a fourth vaccine. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/08/omi...
- crate_barre 5y ago
  Us sheep will put up with this one, if it’s the last one. Just this one last booster. Now if we tread into the 4th or 5th booster for the n-th variant, then that’s my breaking point and I will have to call out the shenanigans. Moderna’s revenue since 2016: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107794/revenue-and-net-income-moderna-inc/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107794/revenue-and-net-... These companies certainly don’t mind the state of things.
  - beervirus 5y ago
    Why? We get a flu booster every year, and that’s fine. I’m happy to get a shot every so often if it means I can go about my life like normal.
    - crate_barre 5y ago
      You don’t lose your job for not getting the flu vaccine. Again, it’s an unprecedented situation and I’ll accept the mandate for the three shots, but this has to have an end at some point.
      - amznbyebyebye 5y ago
        Why is it three? Why can’t they make it effective with one vaccine? Hmm maybe because three vaccines is 3x the revenue they get vs. from one vaccine. They’re just not incentivized for our long term health and well being. It is a pure capitalism.
        gambiting 5y ago
        >>Why can’t they make it effective with one vaccine? There are actual technical and medical answers to this, but somehow I have a feeling you aren't interested in knowing them.
        amznbyebyebye 5y ago
        I am interested to know. I have worked with big pharma executives, and frankly they are probably less interested to know the answer to this than I am.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - throwawayxmas 5y ago
        Of course it ends, when the hospitals aren't a mess? Until then, we have to keep getting vaccines. It's clear that the wave after wave it's getting easier in the hospitals. Remember, that hospital systems in pretty much all countries has collapsed. They have to move surgeries and some patients are even afraid to go to hospitals at this point.
        johnisgood 5y ago
        They stopped surgeries here (more or less), but it has nothing to do with any kind of shortage or lack of capacity.
    - amznbyebyebye 5y ago
      Lol you get the booster. I’ve never had a flu shot and don’t intend to get one unless I’m forced to. I’ve never been accused of killing anyone or putting anyones life at risk like the case with the current virus.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        I honestly don't know what this adds to the discussion though. Like....good for you? And of course you didn't get accused of such things, because it would have made zero sense in context.
        miked85 5y ago
        Of course it makes zero sense, same with COVID vaccinations.
    - mjfl 5y ago
      I don't get a severe fever from flu shots.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Do you not? I certainly do, at least in the last few years, every single time. And if we're sharing anecdotes, I was absolutely fine after all 3 of my covid shots, just a painful arm the next day and that's about it.
      - simonh 5y ago
        Many people do.
    - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
      Flu shots are “updated” every year for new variants. I might be wrong, but I think covid boosters so far are all just extra doses of the same old material. I don’t think anyone would get flu shots if we were expected to get 4 doses of the same thing with demonstrated lower efficacy. I’m perfectly fine with getting boosters if they’re adjusted to be more effective against new strains. Getting a third, fourth, or fifth dose of the same old strain that’s basically been evolutionarily eliminated seems off to me.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        Which is why all of these companies are currently working on "v2" of the vaccine which specifically targets omicron. But since the current version of the vaccine was found the be effective anyway, that's why it's being used. I imagine by the time next year it won't be in use anymore, purely because of its lack of effectivness for whatever variant is around then.
        noir_lord 5y ago
        I think that is exactly the way we are heading as pandemic becomes endemic. A yearly shot for vulnerable people possibly rolled in with your flu shot (or at least scheduled the same way). I go get my flu shot every year since I'm classed as vulnerable for health reasons - the exact same reasons I went and got both covid shots and the booster the second I could.
      - whynotminot 5y ago
        You’re thinking about the booster wrong. Having a vaccine for the ancestral strain is actually pretty great, because it confers (or has to this point) some level of protection against all child strains due to there being at least enough similarity still. If you make some highly specific omicron booster, it might not do anything against whatever variant comes next. As long as the original shot keeps working, it’s the best one to ride with for now.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
    - thaufeki 5y ago
      Why do people keep saying this? I have literally never received a flu shot, they have always been reserved for the sick and elderly Why not, instead of shots, do these pharmaceutical companies not prioritise developing an effective at home treatment for the symptoms of Covid-19? It's very hard to see light at the end of this tunnel, which appears to be becoming a booster merry-go-round.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        >>Why do people keep saying this? Because the population on HN is not homogeneus and different regions in the world approach the flu vaccine differently? In some countries it's completely free and it's normal to get it every year, and even in some countries where it isn't, there's only a nominal cost and usually the employer covers it - so most people get the flu shot too. Not a big deal at all. >> they have always been reserved for the sick and elderly See above. Maybe that's true where you live. >> instead of shots, do these pharmaceutical companies not prioritise developing an effective at home treatment for the symptoms of Covid-19 Why not both? Treatment for symptoms is under development, as well as vaccine which you take with an inhaler at home. Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms?
        thaufeki 5y ago
        >>Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms? No, but surely it would be easier to produce an antiviral for home use that would alleviate the symptoms of Covid-19, rather than relying on the development of a vaccine, and then demanding almost universal uptake for it to work? Then we could have had vaccines for the sick, elderly, immunocompromised and whoever else wanted them after a while, and treatment of symptoms for everyone else. We knew, pretty much from the beginning, that Covid was here to stay. I would like to know what the path out of this pandemic is now, now that we still aren't discussing treatment and are talking about additional boosters.
        Toutouxc 5y ago
  - amznbyebyebye 5y ago
    As an investor in Pfizer I really love it when there are new variants and we all need more vaccines. It’s more money for me. As a human being, I worry about the (currently unknown) long term effects on my health.
    - ianhawes 5y ago
      I applaud your ability to appropriately hedge your long term health risks with a short term financial gain to provide for your care in the event you have debilitating long term effects. Remember to cash out before the lawsuits hit.
  - bootlooped 5y ago
    800 million in revenue seems really reasonable for having developed one of the best, it not the best, COVID 19 vaccines in the world. Consider that Apple's annual revenue from just airpods is over 10 billion.
    - dorfsmay 5y ago
      Wasn't the Moderna COVID vaccin funded by the German taxpayers?
      - bootlooped 5y ago
        BioNTech is a German company, so it seems more likely that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was at least partially funded that way.
        dorfsmay 5y ago
        Oh, you're right, Moderna was funded by the US taxpayers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2020/12/03/the-peoples-vaccine-modernas-coronavirus-vaccine-was-largely-funded-by-taxpayer-dollars/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2020/12/03/the-people...
  - najqh 5y ago
    Good luck. I already reached my breaking point with omicron. I am not taking a booster at all. It is quite clear that this will never end. We have to send a message to the authorities.
    - spaetzleesser 5y ago
      What is the exact message? I agree this is frustrating but I don’t understand what message not getting a booster will send.
      - crate_barre 5y ago
        The message is stop playing political theater and creating a media cycle at every variant less it be particularly fatal one.
        spaetzleesser 5y ago
        And how is this archived by not getting the booster?
        crate_barre 5y ago
        They don’t try to sell a 4th one when the 3rd one doesn’t sell well.
      - najqh 5y ago
    - randomopining 5y ago
      The point is they gotta get boosters in people before the hospitals get overcrowded (only then people will realize they should've gotten a booster or the shots). People can't figure this out, so they need to use the media to get the message out.
refurb 5y ago
I’ve been on the other side of these types of press releases and you’re exactly right. Always report the most “impressive” numbers even if you know they don’t actually translate to a difference in outcome (usually because you don’t have that data yet).
podgaj 5y ago
I want to know why they never fully investigate why there is such a disparity of outcomes between people who catch SARS2. One can say obesity, but what does that mean physiologically? Is it just they already how too much inflammation? https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.119.315896 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.119.... Of is it that they are deficiency in some nutrient that causes the inflammation? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0946672X20301802 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09466... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fsn3.2203 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fsn3.2203 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-020-02060-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-020-02060-8 Vaccines are the low hanging fruit but they are obviously are not working so well. Maybe we should all be talking about human nutrition a bit more.
- simonh 5y ago
  >I want to know why they never fully investigate why there is such a disparity of outcomes between people who catch SARS2. It's been, and is being very intensively investigated. We know an awful lot about some aspects of it, but the factors that lead to different immune system responses are very difficult to figure out despite many decades of research into the mechanisms. In the first instance, the specific sites and pathways in the body the virus initially infects and propagates through make a big difference. It might initially infect the nasal passage, throat, lungs or even the nervous system. Even the specific sites in those areas and the initial viral load make a big difference to the progression of the disease. As the infection spreads the many, many different combinations of which systems in the body are infected, in what order, how severely and in combination with what stages in the immune response, together with the weaknesses and strengths of different systems in an individual leads to a massive explosion in the number of possible different scenarios and hence likely outcomes. A big problem though is our limited understanding of the various failure modes of the immune system, or at least in our ability to manage it. Inflamation is our immune system causing collateral damage to our own bodies. There are many, many diseases related to this and they can all be extremely difficult to treat.
  - podgaj 5y ago

by trhway 5y ago

amznbyebyebye 5y ago

Shame you’re being downvoted and people don’t get that there might be just a small conflict of interest for the Pfizer ceo to be the one dictating that we need a fourth vaccine. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/08/omicron-pfizer-ceo-says-we-may-need-fourth-covid-vaccine-doses-sooner-than-expected.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/08/omi...

crate_barre 5y ago
Us sheep will put up with this one, if it’s the last one. Just this one last booster. Now if we tread into the 4th or 5th booster for the n-th variant, then that’s my breaking point and I will have to call out the shenanigans. Moderna’s revenue since 2016: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107794/revenue-and-net-income-moderna-inc/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107794/revenue-and-net-... These companies certainly don’t mind the state of things.
- beervirus 5y ago
  Why? We get a flu booster every year, and that’s fine. I’m happy to get a shot every so often if it means I can go about my life like normal.
  - crate_barre 5y ago
    You don’t lose your job for not getting the flu vaccine. Again, it’s an unprecedented situation and I’ll accept the mandate for the three shots, but this has to have an end at some point.
    - amznbyebyebye 5y ago
      Why is it three? Why can’t they make it effective with one vaccine? Hmm maybe because three vaccines is 3x the revenue they get vs. from one vaccine. They’re just not incentivized for our long term health and well being. It is a pure capitalism.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        >>Why can’t they make it effective with one vaccine? There are actual technical and medical answers to this, but somehow I have a feeling you aren't interested in knowing them.
        amznbyebyebye 5y ago
        I am interested to know. I have worked with big pharma executives, and frankly they are probably less interested to know the answer to this than I am.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - throwawayxmas 5y ago
      Of course it ends, when the hospitals aren't a mess? Until then, we have to keep getting vaccines. It's clear that the wave after wave it's getting easier in the hospitals. Remember, that hospital systems in pretty much all countries has collapsed. They have to move surgeries and some patients are even afraid to go to hospitals at this point.
      - johnisgood 5y ago
        They stopped surgeries here (more or less), but it has nothing to do with any kind of shortage or lack of capacity.
  - amznbyebyebye 5y ago
    Lol you get the booster. I’ve never had a flu shot and don’t intend to get one unless I’m forced to. I’ve never been accused of killing anyone or putting anyones life at risk like the case with the current virus.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      I honestly don't know what this adds to the discussion though. Like....good for you? And of course you didn't get accused of such things, because it would have made zero sense in context.
      - miked85 5y ago
        Of course it makes zero sense, same with COVID vaccinations.
  - mjfl 5y ago
    I don't get a severe fever from flu shots.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Do you not? I certainly do, at least in the last few years, every single time. And if we're sharing anecdotes, I was absolutely fine after all 3 of my covid shots, just a painful arm the next day and that's about it.
    - simonh 5y ago
      Many people do.
  - forgotmyoldname 5y ago
    Flu shots are “updated” every year for new variants. I might be wrong, but I think covid boosters so far are all just extra doses of the same old material. I don’t think anyone would get flu shots if we were expected to get 4 doses of the same thing with demonstrated lower efficacy. I’m perfectly fine with getting boosters if they’re adjusted to be more effective against new strains. Getting a third, fourth, or fifth dose of the same old strain that’s basically been evolutionarily eliminated seems off to me.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      Which is why all of these companies are currently working on "v2" of the vaccine which specifically targets omicron. But since the current version of the vaccine was found the be effective anyway, that's why it's being used. I imagine by the time next year it won't be in use anymore, purely because of its lack of effectivness for whatever variant is around then.
      - noir_lord 5y ago
        I think that is exactly the way we are heading as pandemic becomes endemic. A yearly shot for vulnerable people possibly rolled in with your flu shot (or at least scheduled the same way). I go get my flu shot every year since I'm classed as vulnerable for health reasons - the exact same reasons I went and got both covid shots and the booster the second I could.
    - whynotminot 5y ago
      You’re thinking about the booster wrong. Having a vaccine for the ancestral strain is actually pretty great, because it confers (or has to this point) some level of protection against all child strains due to there being at least enough similarity still. If you make some highly specific omicron booster, it might not do anything against whatever variant comes next. As long as the original shot keeps working, it’s the best one to ride with for now.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
  - thaufeki 5y ago
    Why do people keep saying this? I have literally never received a flu shot, they have always been reserved for the sick and elderly Why not, instead of shots, do these pharmaceutical companies not prioritise developing an effective at home treatment for the symptoms of Covid-19? It's very hard to see light at the end of this tunnel, which appears to be becoming a booster merry-go-round.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      >>Why do people keep saying this? Because the population on HN is not homogeneus and different regions in the world approach the flu vaccine differently? In some countries it's completely free and it's normal to get it every year, and even in some countries where it isn't, there's only a nominal cost and usually the employer covers it - so most people get the flu shot too. Not a big deal at all. >> they have always been reserved for the sick and elderly See above. Maybe that's true where you live. >> instead of shots, do these pharmaceutical companies not prioritise developing an effective at home treatment for the symptoms of Covid-19 Why not both? Treatment for symptoms is under development, as well as vaccine which you take with an inhaler at home. Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms?
      - thaufeki 5y ago
        >>Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms? No, but surely it would be easier to produce an antiviral for home use that would alleviate the symptoms of Covid-19, rather than relying on the development of a vaccine, and then demanding almost universal uptake for it to work? Then we could have had vaccines for the sick, elderly, immunocompromised and whoever else wanted them after a while, and treatment of symptoms for everyone else. We knew, pretty much from the beginning, that Covid was here to stay. I would like to know what the path out of this pandemic is now, now that we still aren't discussing treatment and are talking about additional boosters.
        Toutouxc 5y ago
- amznbyebyebye 5y ago
  As an investor in Pfizer I really love it when there are new variants and we all need more vaccines. It’s more money for me. As a human being, I worry about the (currently unknown) long term effects on my health.
  - ianhawes 5y ago
    I applaud your ability to appropriately hedge your long term health risks with a short term financial gain to provide for your care in the event you have debilitating long term effects. Remember to cash out before the lawsuits hit.
- bootlooped 5y ago
  800 million in revenue seems really reasonable for having developed one of the best, it not the best, COVID 19 vaccines in the world. Consider that Apple's annual revenue from just airpods is over 10 billion.
  - dorfsmay 5y ago
    Wasn't the Moderna COVID vaccin funded by the German taxpayers?
    - bootlooped 5y ago
      BioNTech is a German company, so it seems more likely that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was at least partially funded that way.
      - dorfsmay 5y ago
        Oh, you're right, Moderna was funded by the US taxpayers: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2020/12/03/the-peoples-vaccine-modernas-coronavirus-vaccine-was-largely-funded-by-taxpayer-dollars/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2020/12/03/the-people...
- najqh 5y ago
  Good luck. I already reached my breaking point with omicron. I am not taking a booster at all. It is quite clear that this will never end. We have to send a message to the authorities.
  - spaetzleesser 5y ago
    What is the exact message? I agree this is frustrating but I don’t understand what message not getting a booster will send.
    - crate_barre 5y ago
      The message is stop playing political theater and creating a media cycle at every variant less it be particularly fatal one.
      - spaetzleesser 5y ago
        And how is this archived by not getting the booster?
        crate_barre 5y ago
        They don’t try to sell a 4th one when the 3rd one doesn’t sell well.
    - najqh 5y ago
  - randomopining 5y ago
    The point is they gotta get boosters in people before the hospitals get overcrowded (only then people will realize they should've gotten a booster or the shots). People can't figure this out, so they need to use the media to get the message out.

refurb 5y ago

I’ve been on the other side of these types of press releases and you’re exactly right. Always report the most “impressive” numbers even if you know they don’t actually translate to a difference in outcome (usually because you don’t have that data yet).

podgaj 5y ago

I want to know why they never fully investigate why there is such a disparity of outcomes between people who catch SARS2. One can say obesity, but what does that mean physiologically? Is it just they already how too much inflammation? https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.119.315896 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCRESAHA.119.... Of is it that they are deficiency in some nutrient that causes the inflammation? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0946672X20301802 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09466... https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fsn3.2203 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/fsn3.2203 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-020-02060-8 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12011-020-02060-8 Vaccines are the low hanging fruit but they are obviously are not working so well. Maybe we should all be talking about human nutrition a bit more.

simonh 5y ago
>I want to know why they never fully investigate why there is such a disparity of outcomes between people who catch SARS2. It's been, and is being very intensively investigated. We know an awful lot about some aspects of it, but the factors that lead to different immune system responses are very difficult to figure out despite many decades of research into the mechanisms. In the first instance, the specific sites and pathways in the body the virus initially infects and propagates through make a big difference. It might initially infect the nasal passage, throat, lungs or even the nervous system. Even the specific sites in those areas and the initial viral load make a big difference to the progression of the disease. As the infection spreads the many, many different combinations of which systems in the body are infected, in what order, how severely and in combination with what stages in the immune response, together with the weaknesses and strengths of different systems in an individual leads to a massive explosion in the number of possible different scenarios and hence likely outcomes. A big problem though is our limited understanding of the various failure modes of the immune system, or at least in our ability to manage it. Inflamation is our immune system causing collateral damage to our own bodies. There are many, many diseases related to this and they can all be extremely difficult to treat.
- podgaj 5y ago