13 ms·

Saw that at your neighboor's in Copenhagen, and after the first outrage of paying +50cts per drink, I understood that I was seeing a glimpse the future… If litt

by Aissen 5y ago

Saw that at your neighboor's in Copenhagen, and after the first outrage of paying +50cts per drink, I understood that I was seeing a glimpse the future… If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it. Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… It becomes an alternative form of giving them your change, and you conveniently don't have to carry the bottle home. Although I've lived in a city where an old lady was known to roam the parks and was very pushy about wanting you to surrender your bottles.
oaiey 5y ago
> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… It becomes a respectful cooperation. When you party in a park, you place your containers next to a trash so a homeless can pick it up without searching the trash. They basically help you partying hard (and not caring/carrying about the bottles) and earn (by hard work) a bit of money.
- runj__ 5y ago
  I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm. I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries. My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes. It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a country that's built on assuming most people will do right for themselves, the it breaks.
    - _0ffh 5y ago
      >"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        Sure, I find it easier to translate English to Swedish than the other way around I guess. Though they are referring to your soon to be recycled cans and bottles when semi-agressively trying to steal them from you.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        It would be "my pawn", translated more literally. Some people find this amusing.
      - freeflight 5y ago
        Sounds like "Mein Pfand" to me.
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
      I see such behavior here in Germany sometimes, too. Like everywhere else in life, there are nice bottle collectors, and there are assholes. One collector gave me a sticky, wet butt, because he snuck up behind us in a park, "stole" my half empty beer bottle I placed next to me, and then proceeded to empty it out right there. It was one of the very few times I had trouble controlling myself not to hit somebody... I managed to control myself in the end enough to avoid violence, but was still angry enough to call the cops on the guy. Cops told him to not show up in the park or surrounding parks for the rest of the day, and when they asked if I wanted to press charges (technically it was theft and damage of property), the collector waved a 20 Euro note for "cleaning costs", which I took instead. I felt that was punishment enough. Then again, there is plenty of bottle collectors who are rather polite, and humbly ask if you're done with the bottle and if they can have it. And a lot of people also gather together their empty bottles in a pile when they see a collector approaching.
      - 5y ago
  - strajk 5y ago
    How much is a deposit compared to the full price of a drink? Here in Czechia it's 3czk deposit for ~20czk full drink price and I've never noticed anybody even asking for the bottles, yet alone "stealing" them.
    - msh 5y ago
      In DK it goes up to 3 DKR for a 1,5 liters bottle of soda that you might pay 15-25 dkr for.
      - freeflight 5y ago
        All these deposits are so low. Germany has 25 cent on non-beer plastic bottles. Which means when buying a 1,5 liters bottle of water, the bottle is worth more (25 cent) than the water in it (19 cent). Bottle collectors are quite common, haven't met any rude ones myself, but they are even speed-collecting trough the trash cans of trains stopped making stops at the station.
        Symbiote 5y ago
        The prices are in Danish crowns, and aren't that far away from the German ones, although some consideration should be made for the higher cost of living here. Glass bottles, normal cans: 1kr = 13¢ Small plastic bottles: 1.5kr = 20¢ Large plastic bottles (≥ 1L): 3kr = 40¢ https://danskretursystem.dk/en/about-deposits/deposit-marks-and-amounts/ https://danskretursystem.dk/en/about-deposits/deposit-marks-...
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  I remember asking a German friend why people were leaving the bottles on top of the bins when we went to a football match. Growing up in Scotland collecting Irn Bru bottles was something you could do for "sweetie" money. I was disappointed the last time I looked to find out that they have now decommissioned their bottle cleaning plant. Apparently conventional recycling has resulted in the rate of return being too low.
  - adam-a 5y ago
    They are planning to bring it back in Scotland, as a more univeral scheme like the GP descirbes in Norway. The timeline keeps getting pushed back due to lobbying from the drinks industry though: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-delays-bottle-can-deposit-return-scheme-intense-industry-lobbying https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-del...
- berkes 5y ago
  In Germany -at least the cities I'm familiar with- everyone places their cans and bottles next to the trash-can. German bottles often have "pfand gehört daneben" (Deposits belong next to it) printed on them[0]. And some cities even placed special holders alongside the trashcans[1]. Like with many things, Germans have made deposit collection into an efficient job. [0] https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-Pfand-geh%C3%B6rt-daneben.jpg https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-... [1] https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhannover/user/upload/Pfandsammelring_Pfand_gehoert_daneben.jpg https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhann...
  - carlmr 5y ago
    The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy. They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it. Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.
    - tobltobs 5y ago
      It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.
      - _0ffh 5y ago
        Nope, glass bottles are just 8 cents.
        z02d 5y ago
        Glass bottles are 8 cents, if they are re-use. Re-use glass bottles with a clip closure are 15 cent (and there are still some other kind of bottles with 15 cent). If they are only single use, they are 25 cents (e.g. beer from Lidl).
      - rndgermandude 5y ago
- qw 5y ago
  i have seen some trash cans in Oslo with a separate cylinder for bottles that gives easy access to the bottles. I hope this becomes more popular, so that they don't have to dig through the trash cans.
- newsclues 5y ago
  It can become a disrespectful cooperation as well. I’ve had people rummage through recycling bin for cans and leaving a mess, I’ve seen fights over who gets to collect cans, and I’ve seen trespassing to collect cans from people’s private porches. When collecting cans goes from a lucrative hobby to a business, problems arise.
me_me_me 5y ago
> If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it. I have learnt that when organising events at work (sponsored by workplace), you have to charge people. Any amount like €5, its two cups of coffee but turn-up rate is in high 90% of people that paid upfront. Without charging any money its 50-60% The number of people that sign up were pretty similar, so I hazard a guess that risk aversion was at play. Its a powerful tool even if you know about it.
ratww 5y ago
> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… That's kind of convenient actually IMO. I get rid of the bottle, I don't have to give them cash. Win-win.
cafard 5y ago
Some years ago, New York passed a law on recycling. For some reason, people seemed to be surprised when it turned out that those showing up at the grocery store with carts full of recyclables were neither lawyers nor stock traders, but rather the homeless.
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  in California there are fewer dropoffs in stores but the bottles tend to come from residential recycling bins, which were raided while they were waiting for a truck to pick them up.
  - QuarterReptile 5y ago
    In my experience, that's common, but so is people jumping your fence to raid your cans before you've put them out. And, should you ever try to recoup the 'deposit' by going to the recycling center, you'll spend 1+ hour in line being hounded by homeless people to give them your cans. All of it creates way more incentive to just throw your cans in the trash so you don't have to deal with any of that.
    - mrexroad 5y ago
      Bay Area here. My experience at recycling centers has always been quick and painless. Took over 60 lbs of cans and a bunch of scrap copper the other week. No line, no hounding.
      - QuarterReptile 5y ago
        My experiences in Monterey (2015) and San Diego (2019) were negative. It is good to hear that the particular issue either is not universal or has improved with time.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    It's still a positive, at least if the recycling system works similar to in the EU. Here, food containers have fairly strict limits on what recycled waste can be used to make them. Returned bottles and cans are clean enough to be made into new food packaging, but ordinary household recycling waste is not.
kwhitefoot 5y ago
Not in Norway, not enough homeless people and far too few discarded bottles and cans. I pick up the occasional beer can on the beach near where I live but they are almost always Polish and of course have no deposit.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
I am not a rich man but the homeless guy needs the 50 cents more than I do. And I rather have homeless people collect cans than making street music to be honest...
- ratww 5y ago
  I always assumed street musicians and homeless people were different people
- necovek 5y ago
  While I don't see a connection between homeless people and street musicians, I am intrigued by your complaint of the street musicians? My kids are fascinated by them, and as long as they are not taking up too much space to make it impossible to pass through the street (and if they do, I'll happily pass through their "stage"), I am quite happy to have the streets livened up by some music too. Not all of it is good or to my taste, but it certainly beats empty streets, especially so during cold winter months.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    They block the shopping streets and their music is terrible. There are no empty streets in the Netherlands on a Saturday and there is nothing more depressing than a Eastern European on an accordion.
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      Perhaps the better Eastern European accordion players stay home. I used to visit Krakow often on business and really enjoyed listening to musicians playing in the main square. Also it wasn't just accordion players, there were all sorts, amateurs, music students, professional musicians playing a wide variety of instruments and styles. It was worth having some cash to put in the bucket.
    - necovek 5y ago
      Isn't it the people that gather around them to listen that block the streets? That's usually my experience.
swlp21 5y ago
> homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection I lived in Alberta 10 years ago and this was totally a thing. One homeless guy hung around the apartment and if you were carrying drink containers he would come and say "Can I take them to the store for you?". Of course, he meant could he get the deposit money on them too. He would hang around until he could fill two or three large garbage bags then head off to the return center to collect the deposit money. In all the time I lived there, I never found out where the actual return center was as I never needed to. The few $ involved was no loss to me (or anyone else in the apartment) but went towards the homeless guy being able to buy food. Never once did he seem drunk or high so he really did seem to be doing it to get food. I would see other guys like him walking along the street with garbage bags of bottles too, so it appeared to be the thing they did and it seemed to work out for everyone as I spoke to lots of people who said they also had a local homeless person that did the same at their apartments.
- ratww 5y ago
  When I lived in Brazil there was no reliable municipal recycling in my city, and no bottle deposit, so instead of throwing paper, cans and bottles into the common garbage, we just left it properly separated at the door and a homeless guy with a cart would pick it up weekly and get it recycled. They were pretty much running a public utility service I'd otherwise have to pay for with taxes.

by Aissen 5y ago

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… It becomes an alternative form of giving them your change, and you conveniently don't have to carry the bottle home. Although I've lived in a city where an old lady was known to roam the parks and was very pushy about wanting you to surrender your bottles.

oaiey 5y ago

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… It becomes a respectful cooperation. When you party in a park, you place your containers next to a trash so a homeless can pick it up without searching the trash. They basically help you partying hard (and not caring/carrying about the bottles) and earn (by hard work) a bit of money.

runj__ 5y ago
I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm. I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries. My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes. It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a country that's built on assuming most people will do right for themselves, the it breaks.
  - _0ffh 5y ago
    >"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      Sure, I find it easier to translate English to Swedish than the other way around I guess. Though they are referring to your soon to be recycled cans and bottles when semi-agressively trying to steal them from you.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        It would be "my pawn", translated more literally. Some people find this amusing.
    - freeflight 5y ago
      Sounds like "Mein Pfand" to me.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    I see such behavior here in Germany sometimes, too. Like everywhere else in life, there are nice bottle collectors, and there are assholes. One collector gave me a sticky, wet butt, because he snuck up behind us in a park, "stole" my half empty beer bottle I placed next to me, and then proceeded to empty it out right there. It was one of the very few times I had trouble controlling myself not to hit somebody... I managed to control myself in the end enough to avoid violence, but was still angry enough to call the cops on the guy. Cops told him to not show up in the park or surrounding parks for the rest of the day, and when they asked if I wanted to press charges (technically it was theft and damage of property), the collector waved a 20 Euro note for "cleaning costs", which I took instead. I felt that was punishment enough. Then again, there is plenty of bottle collectors who are rather polite, and humbly ask if you're done with the bottle and if they can have it. And a lot of people also gather together their empty bottles in a pile when they see a collector approaching.
    - 5y ago
- strajk 5y ago
  How much is a deposit compared to the full price of a drink? Here in Czechia it's 3czk deposit for ~20czk full drink price and I've never noticed anybody even asking for the bottles, yet alone "stealing" them.
  - msh 5y ago
    In DK it goes up to 3 DKR for a 1,5 liters bottle of soda that you might pay 15-25 dkr for.
    - freeflight 5y ago
      All these deposits are so low. Germany has 25 cent on non-beer plastic bottles. Which means when buying a 1,5 liters bottle of water, the bottle is worth more (25 cent) than the water in it (19 cent). Bottle collectors are quite common, haven't met any rude ones myself, but they are even speed-collecting trough the trash cans of trains stopped making stops at the station.
      - Symbiote 5y ago
        The prices are in Danish crowns, and aren't that far away from the German ones, although some consideration should be made for the higher cost of living here. Glass bottles, normal cans: 1kr = 13¢ Small plastic bottles: 1.5kr = 20¢ Large plastic bottles (≥ 1L): 3kr = 40¢ https://danskretursystem.dk/en/about-deposits/deposit-marks-and-amounts/ https://danskretursystem.dk/en/about-deposits/deposit-marks-...
VBprogrammer 5y ago
I remember asking a German friend why people were leaving the bottles on top of the bins when we went to a football match. Growing up in Scotland collecting Irn Bru bottles was something you could do for "sweetie" money. I was disappointed the last time I looked to find out that they have now decommissioned their bottle cleaning plant. Apparently conventional recycling has resulted in the rate of return being too low.
- adam-a 5y ago
  They are planning to bring it back in Scotland, as a more univeral scheme like the GP descirbes in Norway. The timeline keeps getting pushed back due to lobbying from the drinks industry though: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-delays-bottle-can-deposit-return-scheme-intense-industry-lobbying https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-del...
berkes 5y ago
In Germany -at least the cities I'm familiar with- everyone places their cans and bottles next to the trash-can. German bottles often have "pfand gehört daneben" (Deposits belong next to it) printed on them[0]. And some cities even placed special holders alongside the trashcans[1]. Like with many things, Germans have made deposit collection into an efficient job. [0] https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-Pfand-geh%C3%B6rt-daneben.jpg https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-... [1] https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhannover/user/upload/Pfandsammelring_Pfand_gehoert_daneben.jpg https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhann...
- carlmr 5y ago
  The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy. They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it. Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.
  - tobltobs 5y ago
    It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.
    - _0ffh 5y ago
      Nope, glass bottles are just 8 cents.
      - z02d 5y ago
        Glass bottles are 8 cents, if they are re-use. Re-use glass bottles with a clip closure are 15 cent (and there are still some other kind of bottles with 15 cent). If they are only single use, they are 25 cents (e.g. beer from Lidl).
    - rndgermandude 5y ago
qw 5y ago
i have seen some trash cans in Oslo with a separate cylinder for bottles that gives easy access to the bottles. I hope this becomes more popular, so that they don't have to dig through the trash cans.
newsclues 5y ago
It can become a disrespectful cooperation as well. I’ve had people rummage through recycling bin for cans and leaving a mess, I’ve seen fights over who gets to collect cans, and I’ve seen trespassing to collect cans from people’s private porches. When collecting cans goes from a lucrative hobby to a business, problems arise.

me_me_me 5y ago

> If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it. I have learnt that when organising events at work (sponsored by workplace), you have to charge people. Any amount like €5, its two cups of coffee but turn-up rate is in high 90% of people that paid upfront. Without charging any money its 50-60% The number of people that sign up were pretty similar, so I hazard a guess that risk aversion was at play. Its a powerful tool even if you know about it.

ratww 5y ago

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though… That's kind of convenient actually IMO. I get rid of the bottle, I don't have to give them cash. Win-win.

cafard 5y ago

Some years ago, New York passed a law on recycling. For some reason, people seemed to be surprised when it turned out that those showing up at the grocery store with carts full of recyclables were neither lawyers nor stock traders, but rather the homeless.

fennecfoxen 5y ago
in California there are fewer dropoffs in stores but the bottles tend to come from residential recycling bins, which were raided while they were waiting for a truck to pick them up.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  In my experience, that's common, but so is people jumping your fence to raid your cans before you've put them out. And, should you ever try to recoup the 'deposit' by going to the recycling center, you'll spend 1+ hour in line being hounded by homeless people to give them your cans. All of it creates way more incentive to just throw your cans in the trash so you don't have to deal with any of that.
  - mrexroad 5y ago
    Bay Area here. My experience at recycling centers has always been quick and painless. Took over 60 lbs of cans and a bunch of scrap copper the other week. No line, no hounding.
    - QuarterReptile 5y ago
      My experiences in Monterey (2015) and San Diego (2019) were negative. It is good to hear that the particular issue either is not universal or has improved with time.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  It's still a positive, at least if the recycling system works similar to in the EU. Here, food containers have fairly strict limits on what recycled waste can be used to make them. Returned bottles and cans are clean enough to be made into new food packaging, but ordinary household recycling waste is not.

kwhitefoot 5y ago

Not in Norway, not enough homeless people and far too few discarded bottles and cans. I pick up the occasional beer can on the beach near where I live but they are almost always Polish and of course have no deposit.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

I am not a rich man but the homeless guy needs the 50 cents more than I do. And I rather have homeless people collect cans than making street music to be honest...

ratww 5y ago
I always assumed street musicians and homeless people were different people
necovek 5y ago
While I don't see a connection between homeless people and street musicians, I am intrigued by your complaint of the street musicians? My kids are fascinated by them, and as long as they are not taking up too much space to make it impossible to pass through the street (and if they do, I'll happily pass through their "stage"), I am quite happy to have the streets livened up by some music too. Not all of it is good or to my taste, but it certainly beats empty streets, especially so during cold winter months.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  They block the shopping streets and their music is terrible. There are no empty streets in the Netherlands on a Saturday and there is nothing more depressing than a Eastern European on an accordion.
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    Perhaps the better Eastern European accordion players stay home. I used to visit Krakow often on business and really enjoyed listening to musicians playing in the main square. Also it wasn't just accordion players, there were all sorts, amateurs, music students, professional musicians playing a wide variety of instruments and styles. It was worth having some cash to put in the bucket.
  - necovek 5y ago
    Isn't it the people that gather around them to listen that block the streets? That's usually my experience.

swlp21 5y ago

> homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection I lived in Alberta 10 years ago and this was totally a thing. One homeless guy hung around the apartment and if you were carrying drink containers he would come and say "Can I take them to the store for you?". Of course, he meant could he get the deposit money on them too. He would hang around until he could fill two or three large garbage bags then head off to the return center to collect the deposit money. In all the time I lived there, I never found out where the actual return center was as I never needed to. The few $ involved was no loss to me (or anyone else in the apartment) but went towards the homeless guy being able to buy food. Never once did he seem drunk or high so he really did seem to be doing it to get food. I would see other guys like him walking along the street with garbage bags of bottles too, so it appeared to be the thing they did and it seemed to work out for everyone as I spoke to lots of people who said they also had a local homeless person that did the same at their apartments.

ratww 5y ago
When I lived in Brazil there was no reliable municipal recycling in my city, and no bottle deposit, so instead of throwing paper, cans and bottles into the common garbage, we just left it properly separated at the door and a homeless guy with a cart would pick it up weekly and get it recycled. They were pretty much running a public utility service I'd otherwise have to pay for with taxes.