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I think the CDC was being pragmatic. They recognized that Americans were fatigued after a year. Asking people to still mask and social distance even after vacci

I think the CDC was being pragmatic. They recognized that Americans were fatigued after a year. Asking people to still mask and social distance even after vaccinating is a lot to ask for even if it would technically get the virus under control sooner by catching those breakthrough cases too. The prospect of normalcy would increase vaccine acceptance, and then we would hopefully reach herd immunity by vaccine as demonstrated by cases falling off a cliff. Unfortunately unvaccinated people took off their masks and then Delta happened.

refurb 5y ago
So the CDC lied and now that lie is coming back to bite them when people doubt what they say going forward? And please, Delta was starting to circulate before the vaccine was widely available outside the US and Europe. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about. The unvaccinated make a good scapegoat for the failure to properly message.
- supertrope 5y ago
  If they promote very cautious behavior (keep sheltering in place, wear masks) people will throw the catch phrase of "Trust the science!" back at them and demand why the vaccine has not solved the pandemic. If they loosen up on recommendations and something bad happens and they have to take a step back people say they are being capricious.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Or they could just be honest and stop claiming a solution they don’t even know will work? It’s classic PR rule #1 - don’t lie because the lie will eventually catch up to you. It’s better to say you don’t know.
- supertrope 5y ago
  IMO the errors that cost 800,000 Americans their lives were made last year. The President publicly denied the seriousness of the situation. The CDC didn't want to use a foreign test and made their own but they were all contaminated and always read positive. There was minimal contract tracing of travelers. The Surgeon General told Americans not to wear masks saying using masks incorrectly would harm them.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Haven’t most of the deaths happened this year? Sure we may have started off wrong but clearly we could have course corrected? Or are Americans too stupid to understand the risks and trade offs?
    - supertrope 5y ago
      With exponential growth early decisive action is needed. Isn’t course correction lying? :)
    - acdha 5y ago
      The problem was that it was politicized hard early on. Now you have roughly a third of the country who’ve been told that public health measures are an unpatriotic plot, and a lot of belligerence had been encouraged. The rhetoric around this made it a very clear party loyalty test and lots of people rose to that challenge. How many people are willing to admit that they were so wrong for the better part of two years and many thousands of people died who wouldn’t have? That’s very close to admitting that those same people weren’t just lying about one thing.
      - refurb 5y ago
        I’ve spent months in 4 different countries since Covid hit and it’s politicized everywhere. Not sure how you can force people to stay at home, kids out of school, then hand out billions in relief (or not in one country) and not have it be political?
        acdha 5y ago
        I was specifically thinking about the politicization of protection and treatment. The economic impact was definitely always going to be a debate but basic safety measures like masks and vaccination didn’t used to be a strongly partisan issue (think about how American doctors historically leaned Republican for tax reasons). Different countries matter less in the internet era, too. In the English-speaking world, the Murdoch media set the message in the US & UK, of course, but these days that spreads quickly outside of national borders and it was easy to see those messages jump to other language communities on social media. This was especially accelerated by the early recognition of certain risk factors which were compatible with the strong man posturing common to a lot of right-wing ideology.
vidoc 5y ago
> Unfortunately unvaccinated people took off their masks and then Delta happened. That's a CNNesque statement right there.
- supertrope 5y ago
  I don't watch sensationalist cable news. What do you mean exactly by CNNesque?
  - vidoc 5y ago
    I don't know, the idea that the spread of the Delta variant can be attributed to the "unvaccinated", whose morality is so low that they also happen to often be "anti-mask" as well. This is the kind of scapegoating i would imagine CNN do (I'm being unfair here, CNN would probably add a bit of Russian disinformation as well for good culture war mesure.) I'm ready to change my mind tho if you back your statement with facts.
    - supertrope 5y ago
      The spread of Delta is because that variant is more infectious and there is a reservoir of unvaccinated people. The CDC said vaccinated people can take off their masks. They did not say everyone can stop masking. Masking immediately dropped from 75% to 25%. We are not at 75% vaccine coverage even today. Measles is an example of another highly infectious moderately deadly disease. Wherever we don’t have 97%+ vaccine coverage we have outbreaks. Even today with the questions about Omicron’s degree of immune escape there’s theoretically a solution available to use. If 95% of people masked we could get spread under control in 6-10 weeks. But masks are a dirty word and public health campaigns have ceilings to adoption.
      - refurb 5y ago
        No. Delta was around before there was even enough vaccine for countries other than the US and Europe. It was completely unavoidable. And since it’s clearly the fully vaccinated have only a reduced, not eliminated risk of infection and transmission, we could still get another variant. Covid isn’t the measles.

refurb 5y ago

So the CDC lied and now that lie is coming back to bite them when people doubt what they say going forward? And please, Delta was starting to circulate before the vaccine was widely available outside the US and Europe. But that’s exactly what I’m talking about. The unvaccinated make a good scapegoat for the failure to properly message.

supertrope 5y ago
If they promote very cautious behavior (keep sheltering in place, wear masks) people will throw the catch phrase of "Trust the science!" back at them and demand why the vaccine has not solved the pandemic. If they loosen up on recommendations and something bad happens and they have to take a step back people say they are being capricious.
- refurb 5y ago
  Or they could just be honest and stop claiming a solution they don’t even know will work? It’s classic PR rule #1 - don’t lie because the lie will eventually catch up to you. It’s better to say you don’t know.
supertrope 5y ago
IMO the errors that cost 800,000 Americans their lives were made last year. The President publicly denied the seriousness of the situation. The CDC didn't want to use a foreign test and made their own but they were all contaminated and always read positive. There was minimal contract tracing of travelers. The Surgeon General told Americans not to wear masks saying using masks incorrectly would harm them.
- refurb 5y ago
  Haven’t most of the deaths happened this year? Sure we may have started off wrong but clearly we could have course corrected? Or are Americans too stupid to understand the risks and trade offs?
  - supertrope 5y ago
    With exponential growth early decisive action is needed. Isn’t course correction lying? :)
  - acdha 5y ago
    The problem was that it was politicized hard early on. Now you have roughly a third of the country who’ve been told that public health measures are an unpatriotic plot, and a lot of belligerence had been encouraged. The rhetoric around this made it a very clear party loyalty test and lots of people rose to that challenge. How many people are willing to admit that they were so wrong for the better part of two years and many thousands of people died who wouldn’t have? That’s very close to admitting that those same people weren’t just lying about one thing.
    - refurb 5y ago
      I’ve spent months in 4 different countries since Covid hit and it’s politicized everywhere. Not sure how you can force people to stay at home, kids out of school, then hand out billions in relief (or not in one country) and not have it be political?
      - acdha 5y ago
        I was specifically thinking about the politicization of protection and treatment. The economic impact was definitely always going to be a debate but basic safety measures like masks and vaccination didn’t used to be a strongly partisan issue (think about how American doctors historically leaned Republican for tax reasons). Different countries matter less in the internet era, too. In the English-speaking world, the Murdoch media set the message in the US & UK, of course, but these days that spreads quickly outside of national borders and it was easy to see those messages jump to other language communities on social media. This was especially accelerated by the early recognition of certain risk factors which were compatible with the strong man posturing common to a lot of right-wing ideology.

vidoc 5y ago

> Unfortunately unvaccinated people took off their masks and then Delta happened. That's a CNNesque statement right there.

supertrope 5y ago
I don't watch sensationalist cable news. What do you mean exactly by CNNesque?
- vidoc 5y ago
  I don't know, the idea that the spread of the Delta variant can be attributed to the "unvaccinated", whose morality is so low that they also happen to often be "anti-mask" as well. This is the kind of scapegoating i would imagine CNN do (I'm being unfair here, CNN would probably add a bit of Russian disinformation as well for good culture war mesure.) I'm ready to change my mind tho if you back your statement with facts.
  - supertrope 5y ago
    The spread of Delta is because that variant is more infectious and there is a reservoir of unvaccinated people. The CDC said vaccinated people can take off their masks. They did not say everyone can stop masking. Masking immediately dropped from 75% to 25%. We are not at 75% vaccine coverage even today. Measles is an example of another highly infectious moderately deadly disease. Wherever we don’t have 97%+ vaccine coverage we have outbreaks. Even today with the questions about Omicron’s degree of immune escape there’s theoretically a solution available to use. If 95% of people masked we could get spread under control in 6-10 weeks. But masks are a dirty word and public health campaigns have ceilings to adoption.
    - refurb 5y ago
      No. Delta was around before there was even enough vaccine for countries other than the US and Europe. It was completely unavoidable. And since it’s clearly the fully vaccinated have only a reduced, not eliminated risk of infection and transmission, we could still get another variant. Covid isn’t the measles.