8 ms·

For me, the special part is truly viewing any job as just that: a job. I no longer assess my worth as a person as a function of job title, salary, or anything

by toddm 5y ago

For me, the special part is truly viewing any job as just that: a job. I no longer assess my worth as a person as a function of job title, salary, or anything else. I take contracting work primarily and expect absolutely nothing more than a paycheck. Work is a transaction and I deliver what I can and am not a jerk. Almost every disposable penny goes toward physical fitness. My spouse happens to be cut from the same cloth, which is a big plus. We don't live extravagantly unless you count the money for fitness, but we consider that to be an investment and not a frivolous expense. Satisfaction in life for me comes from every angle EXCEPT my job, and that's my secret.

HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
This is the direction I find myself going too. I am a runner in NYC. Its also fulfilling my social needs because I am a member of multiple running clubs. I get to interact with people outside of the tech bubble from all walks of life. I also have met people who are role models for different stages in life. I now have an idea of what I want to be like in my 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s because of the people I've met since I've started running.
- toddm 5y ago
  Good for you, and keep it up - just finding a workout group or running buddies is a great investment for encouraging you to stick with it. Plus the ROI - low blood pressure, heart health, and so on - is almost infinite given the low cost of entry.
  - HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
    That's exactly how I see it. A manyfold return on the money investment. I was an obese sedentary homebody before I signed up for a running class on a whim. It's been 3 years. Every run is a celebration of what I can do. I'd cut many other things before I cut my running expenses if push comes to shove.
  - moneywoes 5y ago
    What is your view on joint damage?
    - tjr225 5y ago
      Is this some sort of weird gotcha or are you sincere? Joint damage is not really statistically correlated with long distance running, and anyone targeting a sub 20 minute 5k is going to have their weight and form so dialed in, it probably is barely a risk at all.
      - moneywoes 5y ago
        I never progressed past 30km from hearing all of these people quiting to save their knees. I wondering where that sentiment comes from if there is no correlation.
        hiptobecubic 5y ago
        My understanding is that people destroy their knees in many ways over the course of their lives and that running makes that painfully obvious to them so they stop.
        HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
        I think its related to weight. We have to acknowledge that there is a serious obesity epidemic in the developed world. The majority of adults are overweight and obese. This is anecdata from what I've seen: you see fat runners. you see old runners. You dont tend to see many fat old runners. The other thing is that if you dont regularly change your running shoes, you will absolutely hurt yourself. I get knee pain if I don't swap out my shoes every 250 miles or 3 months.
    - HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
      My view, on top of what my sibling comment said, is that even if joint damage was a risk ( and it shouldn't be because I'm doing strength training with weights under a certified coach to prevent stress from going to where it shouldn't be), I'd rather take that risk than be sedentary, fat, and at home all the time like I was before I started running. I found a community on top of an activity I like. I found that I have goals beyond just my career goals. I got into coooking and baking because nutrition is important for an athletic lifestyle.
beaker52 5y ago
I've always thought that a job worth doing was a job worth doing well. It's put me through a lot of pain and stress because almost no-one else feels the same way. I'm coming to terms with the realisation that for most people, a job is just a job. To others, a job is a ladder to climb in the pursuit of wealth. Neither of those are me, but I need to find a way to be content in an environment full of people like that. It's a struggle, but I'll work it out. It seems a shame to spend the majority of one's life doing a job that's just a job, and being too tired to apply oneself to other endeavours. But that's what it appears at least I am faced with. And contentedness lies in the acceptance of it.
- idrios 5y ago
  > I've always thought that a job worth doing was a job worth doing well. Kind of off topic but this made me laugh because I once saw the phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing poorly" and I have found massive inspiration in that, as it has helped me overcome my perfectionism and just get more things done.
  - iamthepieman 5y ago
    G.K. Chesterton I believe. Referring, I think, to the joy of truly amateur pursuits.
    - maroonblazer 5y ago
      I've not read GKC but it seems applicable to professional pursuits too. E.g., "Perfect is the enemy of good" has the same sentiment. Also, it's a curative to people of a perfectionist bent. Perfectionism often keeps one from trying something new.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    Per a sibling, it is Chesterton, from his work What's Wrong with the World: * https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm An explanation: > Chesterton consistently defended the amateur against the professional, or the “generalist” against the specialist, especially when it came to “the things worth doing.” There are things like playing the organ or discovering the North Pole, or being Astronomer Royal, which we do not want a person to do at all unless he does them well. But those are not the most important things in life. When it comes to writing one’s own love letters and blowing one’s own nose, “these things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly.” This, argues Chesterton (in Orthodoxy) is “the democratic faith: that the most terribly important things must be left to ordinary men themselves – the mating of the sexes, the rearing of the young, the laws of the state.” […] > In What’s Wrong with the World, Chesterton foresaw the dilemma of daycare and the working mother, that children would end up being raised by “professionals” rather than by “amateurs.” And here we must understand “amateur” in its truest and most literal meaning. An amateur is someone who does something out of love, not for money. She does what she does not because she is going to be paid for her services and not because she is the most highly skilled, but because she wants to do it. And she does “the things worth doing,” which are the things closest and most sacred to all of humanity – nurturing a baby, teaching a child the first things, and, in fact, all things. > The line, “if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly,” is not an excuse for poor efforts. It is perhaps an excuse for poor results. But our society is plagued by wanting good results with no efforts (or rather, with someone else’s efforts). We hire someone else to work for us, to play for us (that is, to entertain us), to think for us, and to raise our children for us. We have left “the things worth doing” to others, on the poor excuse that others might be able to do them better. > Finally, and less heavily, we should also point out that the phrase is a defense of hobbies. […] * https://www.chesterton.org/a-thing-worth-doing/ https://www.chesterton.org/a-thing-worth-doing/
benp84 5y ago
How do you mean you spend money on physical fitness? It does sound like a great investment.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- animal_spirits 5y ago
  Not OP but I spend money on gym memberships, outdooring equipment (backpacks, boots, tents, hammocks) so that I can enjoy the physical activity of hiking and trail walking which is not only a great exercise, but a fantastic way to get into nature and away from technology.
- toddm 5y ago
  We spend a lot of money on a personal trainer; and a coach specific to my poison (cycling). The personal training and coaching are the greatest expense and I will allow my lights to get turned off before I let that lapse - it's that important to me. There has been a significant investment in a rowing machine, indoor smart trainers for cycling, and quite a bit of free weights. My wife runs, and she spends a healthy amount on running shoes. There are monthly subscriptions for things like Trainerroad, Zwift, and "upscale" yoga. The yearly cost of all three might be $500. I invest in a DEXA scan at least once a year for about $50. Workout clothes wear out and need refreshing, but we go cheap on that and the expense is minimal. There are periodic expenses - a new Fitbit, or a heart rate strap needs to be replaced - but they are not frequent or costly. There is a large upfront cost to all of this - I now mention the 2 pretty expensive road bikes we use, but they are years old and have more than paid for themselves by helping us attain better heart health - but it's not prohibitive. I will also note that we have consciously chosen this route vs. maxing out 401(k) or similar. We are not wealthy (in the financial sense) nor are we sitting on a nest egg or in line to inherit a large sum of money. Finally, we're not monomaniacal about fitness. We like good food, going to movies, socializing, and so on. We could do 3 nights in NYC for about $2500 - or we can skip that and use the money for new equipment or a trial run at, say, a new gym. We choose the later 9 times out of ten.
  - 5y ago
sillynonce 5y ago
May I ask how does one start their contracting path? Is it feasible with say 2 years of experience in the industry?
- toddm 5y ago
  For me, I networked via LinkedIn with some old classmates in different fields of study. I truly accepted anything I could do at first. There were bumps in the road. There were mismatches between my skills and what was expected. I believe most others who contract will report the same. There are organizations that are clearinghouses for outsourcing contract work, and my name and CV is with most of ones I could find. Be proactive. Reach out. Apply for stuff on LinkedIn (most of it goes into /dev/null but not all of it) and just get going. One other piece of advice: if you have any desire/skill at technical writing, that is a great angle. Pay is good and there is always demand.
- jwmoz 5y ago
  Yes, you just need to know your stuff. I started contracting 2 years into my career. Best decision I ever made and never looked back.
dataangel 5y ago
What are you spending fitness money on? Dumb bells and a gym membership don’t break the bank for most software engineers.
- toddm 5y ago
  See below - the biggest expense is personal training and coaching. I am not a software engineer, and I have never commanded software engineer salaries. I am what they call a "data scientist" and I have an academic background in the sciences. My wife is a project manager at a big company that is nowhere near the FAANG level. We have a bare-bones yearly burn rate of about $40K: that's mortgage, utilities, rice and beans. Given our combined take-home (post-tax) of about $100K, the $10-$15K we spend on physical fitness per year represents about 20% of our disposable income.
  - greazy 5y ago
    I think i have a similar background to you. Mind sharing how you got into data science contractual work? Is it through academia or in the business world?
    - toddm 5y ago
      It was initially an extension of a relationship I had while in academia. Several regular employment stints came afterwards, just from talking to people. There are a few contract engagements I don't put on my resume: adding stuff to a few WordPress sites for friends; setting up a small Beowulf Linux cluster; debugging a Microsoft Access application for a small business. The main reason I don't list those (and a few others) is that I don't want to do them ever again. The secondary reason is that I don't want a full-time employer to know that I am/was working on the side. More recently, a old classmate from grad school - with whom I worked recently - recalled that I was/am a specialist at running and interpreting the results of a clunky piece of software. Presently I am not working and am starting a contract as a GIS data scientist for a telecom company in January. That one I got from a recruiter who needed someone with my skill set. Note I have updated my contact information on my HN profile, from which you can infer what my LinkedIn profile is and have a look.
moneywoes 5y ago
What have been the best investments you’ve made?
- toddm 5y ago
  0. Taking up yoga in 1995 1. Personal trainer and sport-specific coach (recurring) 2. Professional bike fit and really good cycling shoes (infrequent) (a) Periodic lactate threshold and/or FTP testing (few times per year) (b) TrainingPeaks/Trainerroad/Zwift/Strava subscriptions (recurring) 3. Wahoo KICKR smart trainer (non-recurring) (a) Rollers for a very challenging workout (non-recurring) 4. Concept2 rowing machine (non-recurring) 5. Assorted kettle bells and dumbbells (non-recurring) 6. Fitted really good running shoes (infrequent for me) 7. Garmin running and cycling computers (infrequently upgraded) 8. Fitbit Charge 4 activity tracker
  - neilv 5y ago
    I loved my Concept2 erg (vintage Model B that I found on CraigsList for $100, and refurbished it using parts that the company still had in stock). I bought it after the Concept2 and treadmills were my favorite machines in two gyms. I regretted selling the Concept2 just before my last apartment move, and I plan to buy one again when I have a stable place to put it. The Concept2 erg is expensive, and a matter of taste. So, if a person has never used one, they might want to try one out at a gym first.
jwmoz 5y ago
Fantastic contractor mentality I also share.

by toddm 5y ago

HalcyonicStorm 5y ago

This is the direction I find myself going too. I am a runner in NYC. Its also fulfilling my social needs because I am a member of multiple running clubs. I get to interact with people outside of the tech bubble from all walks of life. I also have met people who are role models for different stages in life. I now have an idea of what I want to be like in my 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s because of the people I've met since I've started running.

toddm 5y ago
Good for you, and keep it up - just finding a workout group or running buddies is a great investment for encouraging you to stick with it. Plus the ROI - low blood pressure, heart health, and so on - is almost infinite given the low cost of entry.
- HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
  That's exactly how I see it. A manyfold return on the money investment. I was an obese sedentary homebody before I signed up for a running class on a whim. It's been 3 years. Every run is a celebration of what I can do. I'd cut many other things before I cut my running expenses if push comes to shove.
- moneywoes 5y ago
  What is your view on joint damage?
  - tjr225 5y ago
    Is this some sort of weird gotcha or are you sincere? Joint damage is not really statistically correlated with long distance running, and anyone targeting a sub 20 minute 5k is going to have their weight and form so dialed in, it probably is barely a risk at all.
    - moneywoes 5y ago
      I never progressed past 30km from hearing all of these people quiting to save their knees. I wondering where that sentiment comes from if there is no correlation.
      - hiptobecubic 5y ago
        My understanding is that people destroy their knees in many ways over the course of their lives and that running makes that painfully obvious to them so they stop.
        HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
        I think its related to weight. We have to acknowledge that there is a serious obesity epidemic in the developed world. The majority of adults are overweight and obese. This is anecdata from what I've seen: you see fat runners. you see old runners. You dont tend to see many fat old runners. The other thing is that if you dont regularly change your running shoes, you will absolutely hurt yourself. I get knee pain if I don't swap out my shoes every 250 miles or 3 months.
  - HalcyonicStorm 5y ago
    My view, on top of what my sibling comment said, is that even if joint damage was a risk ( and it shouldn't be because I'm doing strength training with weights under a certified coach to prevent stress from going to where it shouldn't be), I'd rather take that risk than be sedentary, fat, and at home all the time like I was before I started running. I found a community on top of an activity I like. I found that I have goals beyond just my career goals. I got into coooking and baking because nutrition is important for an athletic lifestyle.

beaker52 5y ago

I've always thought that a job worth doing was a job worth doing well. It's put me through a lot of pain and stress because almost no-one else feels the same way. I'm coming to terms with the realisation that for most people, a job is just a job. To others, a job is a ladder to climb in the pursuit of wealth. Neither of those are me, but I need to find a way to be content in an environment full of people like that. It's a struggle, but I'll work it out. It seems a shame to spend the majority of one's life doing a job that's just a job, and being too tired to apply oneself to other endeavours. But that's what it appears at least I am faced with. And contentedness lies in the acceptance of it.

idrios 5y ago
> I've always thought that a job worth doing was a job worth doing well. Kind of off topic but this made me laugh because I once saw the phrase "anything worth doing is worth doing poorly" and I have found massive inspiration in that, as it has helped me overcome my perfectionism and just get more things done.
- iamthepieman 5y ago
  G.K. Chesterton I believe. Referring, I think, to the joy of truly amateur pursuits.
  - maroonblazer 5y ago
    I've not read GKC but it seems applicable to professional pursuits too. E.g., "Perfect is the enemy of good" has the same sentiment. Also, it's a curative to people of a perfectionist bent. Perfectionism often keeps one from trying something new.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throw0101a 5y ago
  Per a sibling, it is Chesterton, from his work What's Wrong with the World: * https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1717/1717-h/1717-h.htm An explanation: > Chesterton consistently defended the amateur against the professional, or the “generalist” against the specialist, especially when it came to “the things worth doing.” There are things like playing the organ or discovering the North Pole, or being Astronomer Royal, which we do not want a person to do at all unless he does them well. But those are not the most important things in life. When it comes to writing one’s own love letters and blowing one’s own nose, “these things we want a man to do for himself, even if he does them badly.” This, argues Chesterton (in Orthodoxy) is “the democratic faith: that the most terribly important things must be left to ordinary men themselves – the mating of the sexes, the rearing of the young, the laws of the state.” […] > In What’s Wrong with the World, Chesterton foresaw the dilemma of daycare and the working mother, that children would end up being raised by “professionals” rather than by “amateurs.” And here we must understand “amateur” in its truest and most literal meaning. An amateur is someone who does something out of love, not for money. She does what she does not because she is going to be paid for her services and not because she is the most highly skilled, but because she wants to do it. And she does “the things worth doing,” which are the things closest and most sacred to all of humanity – nurturing a baby, teaching a child the first things, and, in fact, all things. > The line, “if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly,” is not an excuse for poor efforts. It is perhaps an excuse for poor results. But our society is plagued by wanting good results with no efforts (or rather, with someone else’s efforts). We hire someone else to work for us, to play for us (that is, to entertain us), to think for us, and to raise our children for us. We have left “the things worth doing” to others, on the poor excuse that others might be able to do them better. > Finally, and less heavily, we should also point out that the phrase is a defense of hobbies. […] * https://www.chesterton.org/a-thing-worth-doing/ https://www.chesterton.org/a-thing-worth-doing/

benp84 5y ago

How do you mean you spend money on physical fitness? It does sound like a great investment.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
animal_spirits 5y ago
Not OP but I spend money on gym memberships, outdooring equipment (backpacks, boots, tents, hammocks) so that I can enjoy the physical activity of hiking and trail walking which is not only a great exercise, but a fantastic way to get into nature and away from technology.
toddm 5y ago
We spend a lot of money on a personal trainer; and a coach specific to my poison (cycling). The personal training and coaching are the greatest expense and I will allow my lights to get turned off before I let that lapse - it's that important to me. There has been a significant investment in a rowing machine, indoor smart trainers for cycling, and quite a bit of free weights. My wife runs, and she spends a healthy amount on running shoes. There are monthly subscriptions for things like Trainerroad, Zwift, and "upscale" yoga. The yearly cost of all three might be $500. I invest in a DEXA scan at least once a year for about $50. Workout clothes wear out and need refreshing, but we go cheap on that and the expense is minimal. There are periodic expenses - a new Fitbit, or a heart rate strap needs to be replaced - but they are not frequent or costly. There is a large upfront cost to all of this - I now mention the 2 pretty expensive road bikes we use, but they are years old and have more than paid for themselves by helping us attain better heart health - but it's not prohibitive. I will also note that we have consciously chosen this route vs. maxing out 401(k) or similar. We are not wealthy (in the financial sense) nor are we sitting on a nest egg or in line to inherit a large sum of money. Finally, we're not monomaniacal about fitness. We like good food, going to movies, socializing, and so on. We could do 3 nights in NYC for about $2500 - or we can skip that and use the money for new equipment or a trial run at, say, a new gym. We choose the later 9 times out of ten.
- 5y ago

sillynonce 5y ago

May I ask how does one start their contracting path? Is it feasible with say 2 years of experience in the industry?

toddm 5y ago
For me, I networked via LinkedIn with some old classmates in different fields of study. I truly accepted anything I could do at first. There were bumps in the road. There were mismatches between my skills and what was expected. I believe most others who contract will report the same. There are organizations that are clearinghouses for outsourcing contract work, and my name and CV is with most of ones I could find. Be proactive. Reach out. Apply for stuff on LinkedIn (most of it goes into /dev/null but not all of it) and just get going. One other piece of advice: if you have any desire/skill at technical writing, that is a great angle. Pay is good and there is always demand.
jwmoz 5y ago
Yes, you just need to know your stuff. I started contracting 2 years into my career. Best decision I ever made and never looked back.

dataangel 5y ago

What are you spending fitness money on? Dumb bells and a gym membership don’t break the bank for most software engineers.

toddm 5y ago
See below - the biggest expense is personal training and coaching. I am not a software engineer, and I have never commanded software engineer salaries. I am what they call a "data scientist" and I have an academic background in the sciences. My wife is a project manager at a big company that is nowhere near the FAANG level. We have a bare-bones yearly burn rate of about $40K: that's mortgage, utilities, rice and beans. Given our combined take-home (post-tax) of about $100K, the $10-$15K we spend on physical fitness per year represents about 20% of our disposable income.
- greazy 5y ago
  I think i have a similar background to you. Mind sharing how you got into data science contractual work? Is it through academia or in the business world?
  - toddm 5y ago
    It was initially an extension of a relationship I had while in academia. Several regular employment stints came afterwards, just from talking to people. There are a few contract engagements I don't put on my resume: adding stuff to a few WordPress sites for friends; setting up a small Beowulf Linux cluster; debugging a Microsoft Access application for a small business. The main reason I don't list those (and a few others) is that I don't want to do them ever again. The secondary reason is that I don't want a full-time employer to know that I am/was working on the side. More recently, a old classmate from grad school - with whom I worked recently - recalled that I was/am a specialist at running and interpreting the results of a clunky piece of software. Presently I am not working and am starting a contract as a GIS data scientist for a telecom company in January. That one I got from a recruiter who needed someone with my skill set. Note I have updated my contact information on my HN profile, from which you can infer what my LinkedIn profile is and have a look.

moneywoes 5y ago

What have been the best investments you’ve made?

toddm 5y ago
0. Taking up yoga in 1995 1. Personal trainer and sport-specific coach (recurring) 2. Professional bike fit and really good cycling shoes (infrequent) (a) Periodic lactate threshold and/or FTP testing (few times per year) (b) TrainingPeaks/Trainerroad/Zwift/Strava subscriptions (recurring) 3. Wahoo KICKR smart trainer (non-recurring) (a) Rollers for a very challenging workout (non-recurring) 4. Concept2 rowing machine (non-recurring) 5. Assorted kettle bells and dumbbells (non-recurring) 6. Fitted really good running shoes (infrequent for me) 7. Garmin running and cycling computers (infrequently upgraded) 8. Fitbit Charge 4 activity tracker
- neilv 5y ago
  I loved my Concept2 erg (vintage Model B that I found on CraigsList for $100, and refurbished it using parts that the company still had in stock). I bought it after the Concept2 and treadmills were my favorite machines in two gyms. I regretted selling the Concept2 just before my last apartment move, and I plan to buy one again when I have a stable place to put it. The Concept2 erg is expensive, and a matter of taste. So, if a person has never used one, they might want to try one out at a gym first.

jwmoz 5y ago

Fantastic contractor mentality I also share.