3 ms·

their goal is simply to not be told what to do The urge to resist force is a vital element of US culture as a check on runaway governments. You see it in many

their goal is simply to not be told what to do The urge to resist force is a vital element of US culture as a check on runaway governments. You see it in many movements, on both sides for or against. Women don't want to be forced to carry a baby. LGBT community doesn't want to be forced to hide. Christians don't want to be forced to stop praying in school. Non-Christians don't want to be forced to listen to prayers in school. Everyone should be persuaded to get vaccinated for things like flu and COVID. Very few people should be forced to do so just to keep their jobs.

dools 5y ago
The comparison of abortion with vaccination is a horrendous piece of libertarian propaganda. No one is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine, it’s not a forced medical procedure. However the involvement in certain activities by the unvaccinated is limited and this is similar to many other public health orders such as not being able to smoke inside a restaurant.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  Correct, nobody is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine. Instead, they are merely withholding your ability to purchase food and avoid repossession of your shelter if they aren't vaccinated.
  - dools 5y ago
    There are plenty of work opportunities that don’t require vaccination, just as there is work available where you can smoke while on the job. If you choose to smoke you will find it much more difficult to work as a flight attendant than a truck driver for example.
    - nitrogen 5y ago
      Flight attendants can smoke off duty if they want. There are also other ways to limit the spread of viruses apart from vaccination, like testing, distancing, masks, ventilation, etc. There should be a gradient of choice, maybe with triage nurses at the "almost definitely need to vaccinate" end, and payroll processors at the "almost definitely would be okay with regular testing and/or other standard measures" end.
mindslight 5y ago
The vast majority of people refusing to get vaccinated are doing so because a centralized top-down political machine told them to be against vaccination. This is about as un-libertarian as one can get. As a libertarian that is actually concerned with freedom, the main thing the Trumpertantrum has accomplished is discrediting the concept. Back when it was a small subset of antivax nutters, causing at most an occasional localized outbreak, I had sympathy for people's right to make their own bad decisions. Now the political machine took up the banner and created a force majeure situation, so I'm just done.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Excessive vehemence fuels that machine, though. It's just too easy to take an authoritarian stance when we already agree with the stance and would stand to benefit, but that is counterproductive in the long run and just amplifies polarization.
- asveikau 5y ago
  Even your "good libertarian's" version of the small localized outbreak affects people that didn't make that choice. My personal view (please don't be offended, libertarians -- it's my right to believe this!) is that individuality itself is a bit of a fiction, and this makes libertarianism essentially based on falsehood and break down. We're interconnected. The best argument for individuality in politics and government, in my view, is that it gives "the average person" a fair shot, giving us good outcomes at the societal level even if many individuals do not get what they want.
dude187 5y ago
The long held WHO goal of international vaccine passports is the reason I won't get the shot

dools 5y ago

The comparison of abortion with vaccination is a horrendous piece of libertarian propaganda. No one is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine, it’s not a forced medical procedure. However the involvement in certain activities by the unvaccinated is limited and this is similar to many other public health orders such as not being able to smoke inside a restaurant.

orangepurple 5y ago
Correct, nobody is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine. Instead, they are merely withholding your ability to purchase food and avoid repossession of your shelter if they aren't vaccinated.
- dools 5y ago
  There are plenty of work opportunities that don’t require vaccination, just as there is work available where you can smoke while on the job. If you choose to smoke you will find it much more difficult to work as a flight attendant than a truck driver for example.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    Flight attendants can smoke off duty if they want. There are also other ways to limit the spread of viruses apart from vaccination, like testing, distancing, masks, ventilation, etc. There should be a gradient of choice, maybe with triage nurses at the "almost definitely need to vaccinate" end, and payroll processors at the "almost definitely would be okay with regular testing and/or other standard measures" end.

mindslight 5y ago

The vast majority of people refusing to get vaccinated are doing so because a centralized top-down political machine told them to be against vaccination. This is about as un-libertarian as one can get. As a libertarian that is actually concerned with freedom, the main thing the Trumpertantrum has accomplished is discrediting the concept. Back when it was a small subset of antivax nutters, causing at most an occasional localized outbreak, I had sympathy for people's right to make their own bad decisions. Now the political machine took up the banner and created a force majeure situation, so I'm just done.

nitrogen 5y ago
Excessive vehemence fuels that machine, though. It's just too easy to take an authoritarian stance when we already agree with the stance and would stand to benefit, but that is counterproductive in the long run and just amplifies polarization.
asveikau 5y ago
Even your "good libertarian's" version of the small localized outbreak affects people that didn't make that choice. My personal view (please don't be offended, libertarians -- it's my right to believe this!) is that individuality itself is a bit of a fiction, and this makes libertarianism essentially based on falsehood and break down. We're interconnected. The best argument for individuality in politics and government, in my view, is that it gives "the average person" a fair shot, giving us good outcomes at the societal level even if many individuals do not get what they want.

dude187 5y ago

The long held WHO goal of international vaccine passports is the reason I won't get the shot