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The biggest problem I have with the idea of student loan forgiveness is that it punishes people who worked hard and paid their loans back and rewards people who

The biggest problem I have with the idea of student loan forgiveness is that it punishes people who worked hard and paid their loans back and rewards people who didn't. If we're going to do a massive wealth distribution and cancel student loans, we should first pay back the people who actually paid off their loans. If that sounds ridiculous to people, then so should forgiving the outstanding loans.

adreamingsoul 5y ago
I don’t think of it as being punished and don’t expect to be reimbursed for having paid back my loans and my spouse’s loans. The benefits of loan forgiveness or even providing free college tuition greatly outweighs the cost of what you and I had to pay for. Either way we are going to pay for it, directly or indirectly.
GongOfFour 5y ago
This is silly. What if you chose to go to a smaller school so you paid for college out of pocket? Should you get paid for the opportunity cost of not going to the expensive liberal arts school? Forgiving debt isn't about you, it's about unburdening an entire generation of working people so they aren't forever under the thumb of financial institutions. Undoing federal guarantees is also about rightsizing academia, which has bloated itself on these ever growing loan numbers.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > What if you chose to go to a smaller school so you paid for college out of pocket? Another reason that loan forgiveness would be unfair. And what about people who learned a trade instead of paying for an overpriced college? Or poor people who didn't go to college because their underfunded neighborhood high school didn't prepare them for college? America has already had too many bailouts to save the privileged from the consequences of their own decisions.
  - benatkin 5y ago
    Not only that, it's a reason that those who don't owe money on their loans might be struggling financially due to missed career or even social opportunities of going to a smaller (read: often crappy) school.
- benatkin 5y ago
  > Forgiving debt isn't about you You're helping to make GP's point. You are saying that those who owe money are more important to this conversation without knowing anything else about them.
  - 310260 5y ago
    Yes because those who still owe money are who it affects. Sure it sucks that people who already paid off their loans can't have them forgiven now but what's done is done. Can't accommodate every single person perfectly.
    - mk81 5y ago
  - ketzo 5y ago
    From an economic standpoint, they are more important. People with massive, life-ruining debt are more important for us to help than people who graduated debt-free or who got jobs/careers that let them pay off their debt. If you can divorce yourself from a kindergarten-esque "fairness" complaint, it's pretty obvious that yeah, we should (unfairly!) help people who are being destroyed by debt.
    - meatsauce 5y ago
      How is it unfair if they agreed to take on the debt? If they went to school, got a degree, and a job, then they got what was promised and need to pay their commitments.
    - benatkin 5y ago
      > we should (unfairly!) help people who are being destroyed by debt The plans are to forgive 10K of debt per person. There is a crazy suggestion of forgiving 50K of debt per person but let's just ignore that (it costs more than a trillion). People who owe 100K are still fucked. They did go to better schools, though, so they have better jobs. Many also have good connections, because they have an easier time networking with their connections. Wanna know who is more fucked? Many people who didn't take loans and went to no-name schools and are working low paying jobs and have few social connections. If we give money to either group it's a handout. For these politicians to pretend it's not a handout because it's forgiving a loan is disingenuous. Elon Musk isn't wrong to poke fun at Elizabeth Warren. Let's just hope it doesn't result in another Trumpist president.
- meatsauce 5y ago
  If you can't pay back a 50,000 or 100,000 loan in 10 years, you're doing something wrong.
Ekaros 5y ago
And also punish those who choose or were not able to get these loans or education in first place. Should they also get same amount of money?
Osmium 5y ago
> The biggest problem I have with the idea of student loan forgiveness is that it punishes people First, I completely get how some people feel this way. It's valid. However, as someone who's almost paid off their own student loan, I would not feel punished by student loan forgiveness. I would be glad to see it. The money I have repaid is already gone; yes, if I could turn back time knowing it would be forgiven, I needn't have repaid it, but if I could turn back time there are lots of investments or choices I would do differently. Student loan forgiveness would take a huge existential burden off an entire generation. It would do so much for mental wellbeing of so many of my peers. I can't think of something I'd rather see. And the truth is, I've almost paid off my loans because I'm doing alright. I'll be fine. Now, the fact it got this bad to start with...doing student loan forgiveness without also making serious reforms is just promising it will happen again. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't help people who are suffering today.
- bosie 5y ago
  If the forgiveness-plan is done, how do you feel that you are now behind on the real estate market compared to someone 10 years your junior? Why not forgive (past and current) tuition rather than debt? At least that would equal the playing field and would acknowledge that tuition was horrible, rather than empahsing the debt aspect of it.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  As someone who paid off my student loans (and struggled to do so, put off marriage to do so) I'm more than happy for student loan forgiveness. That aside, going forward, college is not much of a choice for many white collar jobs these days. Not necessarily to do them, but to be considered for them. If community colleges were state funded and made into four year institutions, available like high school extensions with degrees in the most needed areas, tuition free (no housing, buy your own supplies)... I don't see a huge down side. There are plenty of bloated budget costs that can be cut to bolster needed education in sectors where we are lacking trained people. If people want to go to a more prestigious college that a community college, they can pay for it. If they want a degree outside of the limited scope offered from the needed degrees, then they might have to pay for it. It sounds a bit draconian, but it's a service contract of sorts =/
catillac 5y ago
It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that generally things improving is an affront to people who lived before improvement. To me it sounds like saying we shouldn’t have indoor plumbing because it’s unfair to people who lived without it before it was invented, or don’t have it now.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  It might not have been before, though. Maybe two people graduated at the same time. One person lived it up, making the minimum loan payment so they could afford to eat out, go on vacations, etc. The other person was "responsible" and paid off the loans early. Now the government is effectively rewarding less responsible behavior.
  - nr2x 5y ago
    Or the US government is taxing the poor kid who worked at a non-profit more, relative to his wealthy classmate who graduated debt free and landed a job at his dad's hedge fund.
  - Retric 5y ago
    Student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy is hardly free. There would be a huge advantage to having paid back the loan. Which is why I think forgiveness should be an option ~7 years after leaving school. You still have to convince a bankruptcy judge that you can’t pay but wrecking your finances at 30+ would discourage most from going down that path.
    - noitpmeder 5y ago
      Is this what is being discussed? My limited view of the debate made it seem like this was more of a 1-time blanket loan forgiveness than something only enabled through bankruptcy.
      - Retric 5y ago
        It’s part of the spectrum, various people are talking about various ideas and implementations.
paxys 5y ago
While I agree with you on this specific topic of student loan forgiveness, government action to avert an economic crisis isn't about being individually fair or unfair. Not everyone qualifies for every benefit, and that's fine. Otherwise we would never be able to make any progress because someone would always be left behind.
mindslight 5y ago
The comment you're responding to was not advocating any sort of "forgiveness", but rather ending regulatory subsidies to the lenders. If student loans were made dischargeable in bankruptcy, I don't foresee many people with good jobs quitting those jobs just to declare bankruptcy. Furthermore, that feels like the kind of thing a bankruptcy judge would see right through. Rather, those borrowers will continue to service their debt as per their agreement. It's the people who are unemployed or underemployed that would be in the position to declare bankruptcy, and them doing so will result in the true value of their loans being made apparent to the bondholders. And for the cases somewhere in the middle, it will help with more voluntary restructuring (due to a real BATNA) which won't involve the courts at all.
nr2x 5y ago
What exactly is the "punishment" here? Serious question, how are you negatively impacted by loan forgiveness? Anybody currently holding student debt is required to pay the US government an interest rate exceeding what the Fed gives banks. Student loan interest a tax on the poor levied by the US government. My wife and I have the same degree from NYU: her parents paid her tuition, I took out loans. Over time I pay more for the same degree because of interest. Furthermore, we already do wealth redistribution via corporate welfare of all varieties. There's countless subsidy programs for all manner of environmental harmful activities that will pass huge financial burden to my kid. A small fix to loan interest isn't much to ask.
- dartharva 5y ago
  The punishment is obvious: the opportunity cost you incur by paying student loans is too high. Those who paid their loans have lost money they could have used for other investments to build wealth. Now if you were to forgive current outstanding debts, it would be a punch in the gut to those who did pay off their loans. They had to work and go through much more pains, and missed several wealth-building opportunities they could have had if they were allowed to keep their money. It is an unfair disparity against those who were unfortunate enough to go to college a bit earlier and thus, a punishment.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    that's not punishment, that jealousy of someone else getting a windfall or relief. A real 'punishment' would set you to a worse position than you had before. If you are going to focus on other people getting windfall they don't deserve, there are much better places to focus your energies - I am sure anyone here has a few candidates, but in UK we had government award multimillion dollar contracts for COVID supplies to companies started a month ago, who copied their terms and conditions from a pizza delivery company.
    - TearsInTheRain 5y ago
      If you have two people in a system, subsidizing person A and keeping B the same is exactly the same as keeping A the same and taxing person B. Your changing everyone's relative place in society and whats more you are elevating the people that have behaved less responsibly
DangitBobby 5y ago
Then give a stipend to people who have already paid off their loans.

adreamingsoul 5y ago

I don’t think of it as being punished and don’t expect to be reimbursed for having paid back my loans and my spouse’s loans. The benefits of loan forgiveness or even providing free college tuition greatly outweighs the cost of what you and I had to pay for. Either way we are going to pay for it, directly or indirectly.

GongOfFour 5y ago

This is silly. What if you chose to go to a smaller school so you paid for college out of pocket? Should you get paid for the opportunity cost of not going to the expensive liberal arts school? Forgiving debt isn't about you, it's about unburdening an entire generation of working people so they aren't forever under the thumb of financial institutions. Undoing federal guarantees is also about rightsizing academia, which has bloated itself on these ever growing loan numbers.

leereeves 5y ago
> What if you chose to go to a smaller school so you paid for college out of pocket? Another reason that loan forgiveness would be unfair. And what about people who learned a trade instead of paying for an overpriced college? Or poor people who didn't go to college because their underfunded neighborhood high school didn't prepare them for college? America has already had too many bailouts to save the privileged from the consequences of their own decisions.
- benatkin 5y ago
  Not only that, it's a reason that those who don't owe money on their loans might be struggling financially due to missed career or even social opportunities of going to a smaller (read: often crappy) school.
benatkin 5y ago
> Forgiving debt isn't about you You're helping to make GP's point. You are saying that those who owe money are more important to this conversation without knowing anything else about them.
- 310260 5y ago
  Yes because those who still owe money are who it affects. Sure it sucks that people who already paid off their loans can't have them forgiven now but what's done is done. Can't accommodate every single person perfectly.
  - mk81 5y ago
- ketzo 5y ago
  From an economic standpoint, they are more important. People with massive, life-ruining debt are more important for us to help than people who graduated debt-free or who got jobs/careers that let them pay off their debt. If you can divorce yourself from a kindergarten-esque "fairness" complaint, it's pretty obvious that yeah, we should (unfairly!) help people who are being destroyed by debt.
  - meatsauce 5y ago
    How is it unfair if they agreed to take on the debt? If they went to school, got a degree, and a job, then they got what was promised and need to pay their commitments.
  - benatkin 5y ago
    > we should (unfairly!) help people who are being destroyed by debt The plans are to forgive 10K of debt per person. There is a crazy suggestion of forgiving 50K of debt per person but let's just ignore that (it costs more than a trillion). People who owe 100K are still fucked. They did go to better schools, though, so they have better jobs. Many also have good connections, because they have an easier time networking with their connections. Wanna know who is more fucked? Many people who didn't take loans and went to no-name schools and are working low paying jobs and have few social connections. If we give money to either group it's a handout. For these politicians to pretend it's not a handout because it's forgiving a loan is disingenuous. Elon Musk isn't wrong to poke fun at Elizabeth Warren. Let's just hope it doesn't result in another Trumpist president.
meatsauce 5y ago
If you can't pay back a 50,000 or 100,000 loan in 10 years, you're doing something wrong.

Ekaros 5y ago

And also punish those who choose or were not able to get these loans or education in first place. Should they also get same amount of money?

Osmium 5y ago

> The biggest problem I have with the idea of student loan forgiveness is that it punishes people First, I completely get how some people feel this way. It's valid. However, as someone who's almost paid off their own student loan, I would not feel punished by student loan forgiveness. I would be glad to see it. The money I have repaid is already gone; yes, if I could turn back time knowing it would be forgiven, I needn't have repaid it, but if I could turn back time there are lots of investments or choices I would do differently. Student loan forgiveness would take a huge existential burden off an entire generation. It would do so much for mental wellbeing of so many of my peers. I can't think of something I'd rather see. And the truth is, I've almost paid off my loans because I'm doing alright. I'll be fine. Now, the fact it got this bad to start with...doing student loan forgiveness without also making serious reforms is just promising it will happen again. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't help people who are suffering today.

bosie 5y ago
If the forgiveness-plan is done, how do you feel that you are now behind on the real estate market compared to someone 10 years your junior? Why not forgive (past and current) tuition rather than debt? At least that would equal the playing field and would acknowledge that tuition was horrible, rather than empahsing the debt aspect of it.
UnpossibleJim 5y ago
As someone who paid off my student loans (and struggled to do so, put off marriage to do so) I'm more than happy for student loan forgiveness. That aside, going forward, college is not much of a choice for many white collar jobs these days. Not necessarily to do them, but to be considered for them. If community colleges were state funded and made into four year institutions, available like high school extensions with degrees in the most needed areas, tuition free (no housing, buy your own supplies)... I don't see a huge down side. There are plenty of bloated budget costs that can be cut to bolster needed education in sectors where we are lacking trained people. If people want to go to a more prestigious college that a community college, they can pay for it. If they want a degree outside of the limited scope offered from the needed degrees, then they might have to pay for it. It sounds a bit draconian, but it's a service contract of sorts =/

catillac 5y ago

It’s hard for me to wrap my head around the idea that generally things improving is an affront to people who lived before improvement. To me it sounds like saying we shouldn’t have indoor plumbing because it’s unfair to people who lived without it before it was invented, or don’t have it now.

dehrmann 5y ago
It might not have been before, though. Maybe two people graduated at the same time. One person lived it up, making the minimum loan payment so they could afford to eat out, go on vacations, etc. The other person was "responsible" and paid off the loans early. Now the government is effectively rewarding less responsible behavior.
- nr2x 5y ago
  Or the US government is taxing the poor kid who worked at a non-profit more, relative to his wealthy classmate who graduated debt free and landed a job at his dad's hedge fund.
- Retric 5y ago
  Student loan forgiveness in bankruptcy is hardly free. There would be a huge advantage to having paid back the loan. Which is why I think forgiveness should be an option ~7 years after leaving school. You still have to convince a bankruptcy judge that you can’t pay but wrecking your finances at 30+ would discourage most from going down that path.
  - noitpmeder 5y ago
    Is this what is being discussed? My limited view of the debate made it seem like this was more of a 1-time blanket loan forgiveness than something only enabled through bankruptcy.
    - Retric 5y ago
      It’s part of the spectrum, various people are talking about various ideas and implementations.

paxys 5y ago

While I agree with you on this specific topic of student loan forgiveness, government action to avert an economic crisis isn't about being individually fair or unfair. Not everyone qualifies for every benefit, and that's fine. Otherwise we would never be able to make any progress because someone would always be left behind.

mindslight 5y ago

The comment you're responding to was not advocating any sort of "forgiveness", but rather ending regulatory subsidies to the lenders. If student loans were made dischargeable in bankruptcy, I don't foresee many people with good jobs quitting those jobs just to declare bankruptcy. Furthermore, that feels like the kind of thing a bankruptcy judge would see right through. Rather, those borrowers will continue to service their debt as per their agreement. It's the people who are unemployed or underemployed that would be in the position to declare bankruptcy, and them doing so will result in the true value of their loans being made apparent to the bondholders. And for the cases somewhere in the middle, it will help with more voluntary restructuring (due to a real BATNA) which won't involve the courts at all.

nr2x 5y ago

What exactly is the "punishment" here? Serious question, how are you negatively impacted by loan forgiveness? Anybody currently holding student debt is required to pay the US government an interest rate exceeding what the Fed gives banks. Student loan interest a tax on the poor levied by the US government. My wife and I have the same degree from NYU: her parents paid her tuition, I took out loans. Over time I pay more for the same degree because of interest. Furthermore, we already do wealth redistribution via corporate welfare of all varieties. There's countless subsidy programs for all manner of environmental harmful activities that will pass huge financial burden to my kid. A small fix to loan interest isn't much to ask.

dartharva 5y ago
The punishment is obvious: the opportunity cost you incur by paying student loans is too high. Those who paid their loans have lost money they could have used for other investments to build wealth. Now if you were to forgive current outstanding debts, it would be a punch in the gut to those who did pay off their loans. They had to work and go through much more pains, and missed several wealth-building opportunities they could have had if they were allowed to keep their money. It is an unfair disparity against those who were unfortunate enough to go to college a bit earlier and thus, a punishment.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  that's not punishment, that jealousy of someone else getting a windfall or relief. A real 'punishment' would set you to a worse position than you had before. If you are going to focus on other people getting windfall they don't deserve, there are much better places to focus your energies - I am sure anyone here has a few candidates, but in UK we had government award multimillion dollar contracts for COVID supplies to companies started a month ago, who copied their terms and conditions from a pizza delivery company.
  - TearsInTheRain 5y ago
    If you have two people in a system, subsidizing person A and keeping B the same is exactly the same as keeping A the same and taxing person B. Your changing everyone's relative place in society and whats more you are elevating the people that have behaved less responsibly

DangitBobby 5y ago

Then give a stipend to people who have already paid off their loans.