5 ms·

Half the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards. Covid isn't going to go away (at least not for a while), which I think everyone

by xxpor 5y ago

Half the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards. Covid isn't going to go away (at least not for a while), which I think everyone at least implicitly accepts at this point. The people who are going to get vaccinated largely have (especially in a few months with the OSHA rule + booster rollout). So what are we even doing?

happynacho 5y ago
The "pandemic" is no longer about health, is about absolute government control.
bryan0 5y ago
> Half the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards. Yeah I don’t think the goals have been clear, even if they have been changing over time. I think the clearest goal now should be a 90% vaccination rate to turn Covid into the common cold, and then going back to life as normal, but as long as huge swathes of the population refuse to get vaccinated this goal is unattainable. Edit: I believe Biden actually set a 70% vax goal for July 2021, and we missed it. No way we can hit 90%. I think possibly for anti-vaxers their goal is simply to not be told what to do and if they end up in an overwhelmed hospital so be it.
- dempseye 5y ago
  I live in a country with a vaccination rate over 90% and we still have partial lockdowns. So I suggest you reassess whether meeting that goal in your location would result in things going back to normal for you.
  - bryan0 5y ago
    Good to know. Which country? Why are they implementing lockdowns? The other problem is that just hitting the % isn’t good enough. You need to keep up to date if boosters are required. So definitely not easy.
    - sieabahlpark 5y ago
      Take your pick they're all doing it for the most part.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Maybe portugal and the likely reason in any answer will be hospitalisation rates.
      - bryan0 5y ago
        Looks like Portugal really turned their vaccination program around to be a real success story. As far as I can tell they are not reintroducing lockdowns? https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1063830104/portugal-covid-vaccines-omicron-variant https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1063830104/portugal-covid-vac...
        hutzlibu 5y ago
        Lockdown "light" https://m.dw.com/en/covid-19-special-vaccination-champion-portugal/av-60172829 https://m.dw.com/en/covid-19-special-vaccination-champion-po...
- najqh 5y ago
  >I think the clearest goal now should be a 90% vaccination rate to turn Covid into the common cold, and then going back to life as normal, but as long as huge swathes of the population refuse to get vaccinated this goal is unattainable. "You can't comply your way out of tyranny"
- astrange 5y ago
  Some antivaxxers are just afraid of needles, so if we had a nasal spray vaccine they’d take it.
  - bryan0 5y ago
    I’ve wondered for what % of people this is their main reason for not getting vaccinated….
    - afarrell 5y ago
      I imagine it is hard to measure that, since 1. It is a "wimpy" thing to admit to. People are reluctant to think things about themselves which, if admitted aloud, could earn social ridicule. 2. One fear can prompt another and lead to an anxiety spiral which is too overwhelming for someone to even put into words. Conjecture: The best way to measure it would be to introduce a nasal spray and see what sort of uptick it earns.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  their goal is simply to not be told what to do The urge to resist force is a vital element of US culture as a check on runaway governments. You see it in many movements, on both sides for or against. Women don't want to be forced to carry a baby. LGBT community doesn't want to be forced to hide. Christians don't want to be forced to stop praying in school. Non-Christians don't want to be forced to listen to prayers in school. Everyone should be persuaded to get vaccinated for things like flu and COVID. Very few people should be forced to do so just to keep their jobs.
  - dools 5y ago
    The comparison of abortion with vaccination is a horrendous piece of libertarian propaganda. No one is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine, it’s not a forced medical procedure. However the involvement in certain activities by the unvaccinated is limited and this is similar to many other public health orders such as not being able to smoke inside a restaurant.
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      Correct, nobody is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine. Instead, they are merely withholding your ability to purchase food and avoid repossession of your shelter if they aren't vaccinated.
      - dools 5y ago
        There are plenty of work opportunities that don’t require vaccination, just as there is work available where you can smoke while on the job. If you choose to smoke you will find it much more difficult to work as a flight attendant than a truck driver for example.
        nitrogen 5y ago
        Flight attendants can smoke off duty if they want. There are also other ways to limit the spread of viruses apart from vaccination, like testing, distancing, masks, ventilation, etc. There should be a gradient of choice, maybe with triage nurses at the "almost definitely need to vaccinate" end, and payroll processors at the "almost definitely would be okay with regular testing and/or other standard measures" end.
conception 5y ago
In the US at least, herd immunity went away as a goal really in like May 2020. It’s always been to flatten the curve so hospitals can deal with the sick until everyone can get vaccinated. At this point, it’s just to flatten the curve so our health care system doesn’t completely implode while everyone is slowly (or not so slowly) coming in contact with the virus. There is also international travel as a point - the vaccine isn’t available at will everywhere, so there’s some being a good neighbor in slowly the general spread of the vaccine as well.
542458 5y ago
As far as I can tell there are a two scenarios where life can return to something resembling normal: 1 - The obvious one, everybody (or close enough to everybody) gets partial immunity either through vaccination or through actually catching it. Variants are making this a moving target, unfortunately. 2 - Somebody comes up with and mass manufactures a good-enough therapeutic that can keep sick people out of the hospitals. To this end I’m very hopeful for the new Pfizer drug.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  1. Omicron is driving out the earlier variants. 2. I would really like to see a proper, large RCT of ivermectin, HCQ+zinc, and the new Pfizer therapeutic. The latter costs $700 per course, apparently, and many countries won’t be able to afford it. And, exclude hospitalized patients, we’re trying to find out how to keep people out of the hospital!
VeninVidiaVicii 5y ago
> the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards I hadn't thought about this explicitly but I'd also say this is most of the problem. Working in academia, some facet of our policies changes on a daily basis in knee-jerk reactions. Worse yet, my area of research is infectious disease and I imagine this must be how climate scientists feel when policy decisions just get drawn out with no goal.
heartbeats 5y ago
The goal is simple: for nobody to ever die of COVID-19, or any other cause, ever again. Any less than this, and you'll lock down again.

by xxpor 5y ago

happynacho 5y ago

The "pandemic" is no longer about health, is about absolute government control.

bryan0 5y ago

> Half the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards. Yeah I don’t think the goals have been clear, even if they have been changing over time. I think the clearest goal now should be a 90% vaccination rate to turn Covid into the common cold, and then going back to life as normal, but as long as huge swathes of the population refuse to get vaccinated this goal is unattainable. Edit: I believe Biden actually set a 70% vax goal for July 2021, and we missed it. No way we can hit 90%. I think possibly for anti-vaxers their goal is simply to not be told what to do and if they end up in an overwhelmed hospital so be it.

dempseye 5y ago
I live in a country with a vaccination rate over 90% and we still have partial lockdowns. So I suggest you reassess whether meeting that goal in your location would result in things going back to normal for you.
- bryan0 5y ago
  Good to know. Which country? Why are they implementing lockdowns? The other problem is that just hitting the % isn’t good enough. You need to keep up to date if boosters are required. So definitely not easy.
  - sieabahlpark 5y ago
    Take your pick they're all doing it for the most part.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Maybe portugal and the likely reason in any answer will be hospitalisation rates.
    - bryan0 5y ago
      Looks like Portugal really turned their vaccination program around to be a real success story. As far as I can tell they are not reintroducing lockdowns? https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1063830104/portugal-covid-vaccines-omicron-variant https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1063830104/portugal-covid-vac...
      - hutzlibu 5y ago
        Lockdown "light" https://m.dw.com/en/covid-19-special-vaccination-champion-portugal/av-60172829 https://m.dw.com/en/covid-19-special-vaccination-champion-po...
najqh 5y ago
>I think the clearest goal now should be a 90% vaccination rate to turn Covid into the common cold, and then going back to life as normal, but as long as huge swathes of the population refuse to get vaccinated this goal is unattainable. "You can't comply your way out of tyranny"
astrange 5y ago
Some antivaxxers are just afraid of needles, so if we had a nasal spray vaccine they’d take it.
- bryan0 5y ago
  I’ve wondered for what % of people this is their main reason for not getting vaccinated….
  - afarrell 5y ago
    I imagine it is hard to measure that, since 1. It is a "wimpy" thing to admit to. People are reluctant to think things about themselves which, if admitted aloud, could earn social ridicule. 2. One fear can prompt another and lead to an anxiety spiral which is too overwhelming for someone to even put into words. Conjecture: The best way to measure it would be to introduce a nasal spray and see what sort of uptick it earns.
nitrogen 5y ago
their goal is simply to not be told what to do The urge to resist force is a vital element of US culture as a check on runaway governments. You see it in many movements, on both sides for or against. Women don't want to be forced to carry a baby. LGBT community doesn't want to be forced to hide. Christians don't want to be forced to stop praying in school. Non-Christians don't want to be forced to listen to prayers in school. Everyone should be persuaded to get vaccinated for things like flu and COVID. Very few people should be forced to do so just to keep their jobs.
- dools 5y ago
  The comparison of abortion with vaccination is a horrendous piece of libertarian propaganda. No one is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine, it’s not a forced medical procedure. However the involvement in certain activities by the unvaccinated is limited and this is similar to many other public health orders such as not being able to smoke inside a restaurant.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    Correct, nobody is strapping people down and injecting them with a vaccine. Instead, they are merely withholding your ability to purchase food and avoid repossession of your shelter if they aren't vaccinated.
    - dools 5y ago
      There are plenty of work opportunities that don’t require vaccination, just as there is work available where you can smoke while on the job. If you choose to smoke you will find it much more difficult to work as a flight attendant than a truck driver for example.
      - nitrogen 5y ago
        Flight attendants can smoke off duty if they want. There are also other ways to limit the spread of viruses apart from vaccination, like testing, distancing, masks, ventilation, etc. There should be a gradient of choice, maybe with triage nurses at the "almost definitely need to vaccinate" end, and payroll processors at the "almost definitely would be okay with regular testing and/or other standard measures" end.

conception 5y ago

In the US at least, herd immunity went away as a goal really in like May 2020. It’s always been to flatten the curve so hospitals can deal with the sick until everyone can get vaccinated. At this point, it’s just to flatten the curve so our health care system doesn’t completely implode while everyone is slowly (or not so slowly) coming in contact with the virus. There is also international travel as a point - the vaccine isn’t available at will everywhere, so there’s some being a good neighbor in slowly the general spread of the vaccine as well.

542458 5y ago

As far as I can tell there are a two scenarios where life can return to something resembling normal: 1 - The obvious one, everybody (or close enough to everybody) gets partial immunity either through vaccination or through actually catching it. Variants are making this a moving target, unfortunately. 2 - Somebody comes up with and mass manufactures a good-enough therapeutic that can keep sick people out of the hospitals. To this end I’m very hopeful for the new Pfizer drug.

wrycoder 5y ago
1. Omicron is driving out the earlier variants. 2. I would really like to see a proper, large RCT of ivermectin, HCQ+zinc, and the new Pfizer therapeutic. The latter costs $700 per course, apparently, and many countries won’t be able to afford it. And, exclude hospitalized patients, we’re trying to find out how to keep people out of the hospital!

VeninVidiaVicii 5y ago

> the problem is no one has actually expressed a goal we're working towards I hadn't thought about this explicitly but I'd also say this is most of the problem. Working in academia, some facet of our policies changes on a daily basis in knee-jerk reactions. Worse yet, my area of research is infectious disease and I imagine this must be how climate scientists feel when policy decisions just get drawn out with no goal.

heartbeats 5y ago

The goal is simple: for nobody to ever die of COVID-19, or any other cause, ever again. Any less than this, and you'll lock down again.